CPS Seizes Couples' Kids, Puts Them in Foster Care over Toddler Bathtub Photos
October 5th, 2009 by Robert Franklin, Esq.And Lisa Demaree said, "As crazy as it may seem, what you may think are the most beautiful innocent pictures of your children may be seen as something completely different and completely perverted."
I've said it before and I fear I'll have to say it again - governments are reaching into families and parental decision-making to an outrageous degree. If the state and federal governments are better at being parents, fine. We can turn the whole job over to them and be done with it. But just in case anyone thinks that parents should be the default position for childcare, we need to start behaving a little more rationally than we are now.
And here's a case in point (San Francisco Chronicle, 9/21/09). But before I go any further, please be aware that the following may not be appropriate for younger or more sensitive readers. Proceed at your own risk.
It seems that A.J. and Lisa Demaree, of Peoria, Arizona, took photos of their three daughters, all under the age of five, naked in the bathtub. Yes, that's the brutal truth. I hate to hit you with it so tersely, but there it is.
Now, when the Demarees took the photo stick to Wal-Mart for developing, the employee was alarmed and called the cops. The cops viewed the photos and decided they constituted "child erotica" and "sex (sic) exploitation." In passing, I should mention the obvious - that anyone who believes that photos of naked five-year-olds in the bathtub constitute erotica has a lot more issues than the parent who took the pictures. He/she needs to get psychological help.
But that didn't stop the police and "child protective services." The Demarees had their children seized and placed in foster care for a month. The parents' names were placed on the state's sex offender registry. Lisa was suspended from her school job for a year. They spent $75,000 in attorney's fees to get their children back.
A.J. Demaree said, "Ninety-nine percent of the families in America have these exact same photos." He's right.
And Lisa Demaree said, "As crazy as it may seem, what you may think are the most beautiful innocent pictures of your children may be seen as something completely different and completely perverted." She's right too.
Combine those two true statements and here's what you get: According to police and "child welfare" authorities, 99% of American parents should be placed on sex offender registries, because they photograph their unclothed children.
The Demarees have their children back. They've filed suit against Wal-Mart and the State of Arizona. I hope they win big. It's the only way these zealots will learn the difference between a parent and a pervert.
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October 5th, 2009 at 2:20 pm
"99% of American parents should be placed on sex offender registries, because they photograph their unclothed children."
Yes, well, I think that's the goal.
October 5th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
...We have absolutely out-of-control government intrusion into people's lives. And it's only going to get worse with the current bunch in power.
I look at my American flag and wonder what exactly it stands for anymore.
October 5th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
This is a win, win, win, win situation.
The cops win. They have work to do and taxpayers pay them.
The Child protection agency wins. They have work to do and taxpayers pay them.
Two sets of lawyers win. CPS lawyers paid by the taxpayers, and the lawyer representing the parents paid directly by the taxpayer/hard working citizen.
The Foster Home wins. They get paid and justify their existence and the taxpayers pay them too.
So you see the pattern? (Answer below) Many benefit from an innocent act of parents taking pictures of their children in the bathtub. Those bathing pictures are priceless memories, and I am sure many, many families have them.
Nothing surprises me anymore. We recently had a guy contact us at www.CandaCourtWatch.com who was arrested and I believe spent time in jail for assaulting his wife with a weapon. Brace yourself. Here it comes. it was a lethal sock. Yes a SOCK that was thrown at his wife!
The answer above (MONEY!!!) Pure and simple. It's all a part of the family conflict industry driven by Family Court and Child Protections Services. All heavily supported and pushed for by feminists in the terribly misguided licit name of equality, child protection and women's rights.
Attila
PS I forgot to mention. The children lose. The parents lose. The grandparents lose. In total society loses, but our wonderful Government cares not about us. No not at all. They say they do but they do not!!! It's hard to tell what they really care about.
October 5th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
Have these people lost the ability to think? Does this fall on the fact that to cops, we're all guilty we just haven't been caught yet?
I hope they win too.
October 5th, 2009 at 3:01 pm
After all, it's "for the children".
October 5th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
Now see if the police had actually done their job and invstegated before taking such drastic measures this would not have ended so ugly.
The WalMart employee may have thought they had good reason to call the police but the police went way too far. Why were the parents put on the registry before it was determined that the charges should be dropped? I thought sex offender registry was supposed to only come after a conviction or guilty plea.
Why were the children put in foster care for a month? Its an entire month to decide if the parents were actually fit?
And this from the article linked in the post:
The police report read, "The young girl appeared to be posed in a provocative manner."
Its a little girl holding her sister. What kind of sick person would say that was a provative pose? I would give them some leeway if polic report said something like "The young girl appeared in what could be considered a provative manner by some" (because there are some sick freaks out there that would get off on that picture. But that statement pretty much decides that that photo was taken with erotic purposes.
October 5th, 2009 at 3:52 pm
I've discussed this type of thing with friends of mine who are also fathers. None of us take any pictures to photo labs anymore, just because of the possibility of something like this to happen. It's not right or fair that the world is like this now, but it's simply too risky to do that.
October 5th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
Thank feminism for this, too, folks.
Cut and dry simple.
"In passing, I should mention the obvious - that anyone who believes that photos of naked five-year-olds in the bathtub constitute erotica has a lot more issues than the parent who took the pictures. He/she needs to get psychological help." - writes Robert
- Uh-huh.
Calloway (just above) says: "...It's not right or fair that the world is like this now,..."
- It's also not right or fair that things should remain the same.
Question and challenge every thing that a "feminist" says and stands for.
Keep reading this blog to find out how.
October 5th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
Funny story: My wife and I wanted to get our normal vacation photos developed and had a hard time of it. Our two main supermarkets no longer offered the 2 day development and CVS didn't have a one hour anymore, but had one of those kiosks that charged an insane 30 cents per photo!!!
I asked a clerk about it and he laughed and told me I was behind the times. He said that this was a dying market, like video rental stores, and that most people either had their own color printers or sent them to something online such as snapfish. We checked it out and were amazed... 8 to 10 cents per photo! Just upload 'em and they'll be in your box in a few days.
The kiosk is still useful if you want private or fast photos though. Sometimes CVS and other stores that have them run specials in the fliers for 19 cents per photo or even half that.
October 5th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
What you may or may not understand is that your children DO belong to the State and you are only the provisional parent who is parenting at the State's allowance. Your children are not yours, ultimately they belong to the Nation. Research the concept of parens patriae.
It's perfectly right and perfectly fair. We allowed the government to take our fundamental rights without a fight, and now we are living with the consequences. The masses wanted the nanny-state, and this is the result of it.
October 5th, 2009 at 6:27 pm
Oh, and because I skipped over it:
No, but "no tolerance" laws have taken away their right to think. That is what the masses wanted, and that is what the masses have received.
October 5th, 2009 at 7:49 pm
While I do think what happened was grossly unfair to that family, especially to the three girls, to be fair there is no real way to tell what is child porn and what is not. Granted, it should have been obvious from the photo sex that none of the girls were being molested in those pictures, so there would be no logical reason to report the photos as questionable. However, that does not necessarily mean the girls were not being abused. It could have meant that particular set of photos did not show the girls being abused.
There are unfortunately women and men who do find pictures of naked children sexually interesting, even if it is simply a picture of a child taking a bath. So I would agree that everyone jumped the gun and overreacted without having all the facts, but I think Wal-Mart's policy and the actions of the employees were not necessarily wrong.
October 5th, 2009 at 8:59 pm
Were they removed from the sex offender registry?! Did Lisa get her job back?! This is one of the dumbest stories in a long time. I guess they will come after me next if they ever see the picture of my daughter that I took back in '92. She was in her highchair in nothing but a diaper, it was her first time eating jello, red jello. She was wearing more than she ate. It was too cute to pass up.
October 5th, 2009 at 9:28 pm
Jacobtk:
"However, that does not necessarily mean the girls were not being abused. It could have meant that particular set of photos did not show the girls being abused."
Good grief! OK, let's assume fpr argument's sake that these particular parents were abusers. But most parents who have similar pictures are not! Since there's no way to distinguish between abusers and good parents based on these photos, are you advocating that the state cast a wide net and catch everybody?
EVEN IF these parents were found subsequently to be abusers, it doesn't post facto justify what the police and CPS did based on scant "evidence" to begin with. If you think it does, we're all in trouble!
Presumption of innocence anyone? Due process of law? Probable cause for _removal_ of the children? I don't think so. I don't fault the Walmart employee either, but this matter should have been settled by a brief informal conversation with the cops - not CPS who have too much to gain from taking the kids (and to be fair - too much to lose if they didn't and there really was abuse).
October 5th, 2009 at 10:27 pm
Jacobtk:
While I do think what happened was grossly unfair to that family, especially to the three girls, to be fair there is no real way to tell what is child porn and what is not. Granted, it should have been obvious from the photo sex that none of the girls were being molested in those pictures, so there would be no logical reason to report the photos as questionable. However, that does not necessarily mean the girls were not being abused. It could have meant that particular set of photos did not show the girls being abused.
That's what investigations are for. It's one thing to be suspected of making child porn but what we have here is the parents were presumed guilty before they were checked out to see if there was enough to make the charges stick. She was fired and they were put on the sex offender registry BEFORE the it was determined whether or not they should go to trial. And don't for get that just like with any other crime involving sex and violence once the word got out in their community the locals more than have more than likely assumed they are guilty. I'll bet that some relationships and friendships were lost over this. All because of what? Authorities saw the chance to show they are thinking of "the best interests of the children" and got over zealous.
There are unfortunately women and men who do find pictures of naked children sexually interesting, even if it is simply a picture of a child taking a bath. So I would agree that everyone jumped the gun and overreacted without having all the facts, but I think Wal-Mart's policy and the actions of the employees were not necessarily wrong.
I'm willing to understand they WalMart employee did what they did but the police, DA, and other authorities jumped the gun as you say. There are child abusers out there that would do such things but is it really a good idea to just assume what kind of animal it is by only the sound of its hoof beats?
October 5th, 2009 at 11:27 pm
What mom hasnt taken a picture of their kids taking a bath, this is CRAZY... I hope the parents win the lawsuite!
October 5th, 2009 at 11:40 pm
Yep your right up there, its the way the world is. Everybody scared they will lose there jobs. So they are stupid idiots. The state and government control how you raise your children. I like what the guy said. If they think they can raise your children then let them!!! you wonder why the world is the way it is and why children are so unruly.Its not because of the parents, its because the system controls the parents. Time for a Revolution!!!! Down with the system. Come get me Obama!!! or whoevers president.
October 5th, 2009 at 11:41 pm
Clearly the only abusers in this case are CPS, the DA and the police. The walmart people were (are) simply beyond stupid and probably had no idea that they were unleashing such a horrific state aparatus on the children. A heavy financial award will help Wal Mart get thier training sorted out. As for reforming this out of control unconstitutional portion of our government, I am not convinced it can be fixed, rather it needs to be replaced or just done away with.
October 5th, 2009 at 11:59 pm
The problem is a failure to understand the implications by apathy. We are one step closer to the government targetting all those who are politically helpless. Do think very carefully about this one factor. Who is helpless ?, They can come in to your home whoever you are raise any doubts regarding you individually or your parenting skills with the insuation that you may be pedophiles, or any of those special taboo words. All this while everyone and their jack rabbit will run for cover until the coast is clear. That means your immediate family too ! The question is always 'the well what if !', and that is all the reason they need to have you disarmed and financially stripped. At the other end of your incredibly debilitating journey they say 'oops' we did it again, but no refunds. Coming soon to an area near you, no due process rights when a shortage of public funds requires alternative revenue streams, please no funny money only hard currency, preferably all those lovely assets you have saved for your future. Come on hand them over it is court ordered ! Why delay the inevitable.
October 6th, 2009 at 12:09 am
Up there at 11:39, the worst loony in the loony parade that has shown up in a while. Oh yes of course it's all the fault of the dirty jewssssssss. Isn't everything. Eyes... rolling... Please go peddle your jesus freak bigotry elsewhere.
I hope they win their lawsuit too.
October 6th, 2009 at 12:32 am
It's all about accountability and guidelines.
The problem is that the parties involved in this miscarriage of justice did not have proper guidelines to judge if a picture of a naked child, taken by a parent, was pornographic or not.
The photo-lab clerk should call the police if the store guidelines proscribe that is the proper action but the guidelines should be posted so consumers are aware of the store’s policy. The store will always claim that they were acting in good faith when they called the police but if their guidelines are so ambiguous that the customer is subject to false arrest, they should be held liable for the damage they cause their customer.
After the police are called, they should make an arrest if their guidelines proscribe that they have probable cause. If they make the arrest and probable cause is not upheld, they should be liable for the damage they have done and they should be required by law to make a public apology in all the media outlets that reported the arrest.
The State Attorney's office is the governmental entity that decides weather or not to proceed with a case. They too should have clear guidelines and if they decide to prosecute the case and it is later determined that they proceeded in error, then the State Attorney's Office should be held libel for the cost of litigation.
The Department of Children and Family’s should take charge of the children they feel are being abused, but too should be held libel to the extent that their opinion or testimony were responsible for the decision to arrest and prosecute.
It's all about having reasonable guidelines and being accountable if the guidelines are not followed or they are abused. If all parties are told that they will be held accountable then all the parties will take care to have proper guidelines and the number of frivolous arrest would fall drastically.
Ray Ramirez
Palm Bay, Fl.
October 6th, 2009 at 12:34 am
So, as far as anyone knows the Parents weren't doing anything wrong. As far as anyone knows the the Parents weren't causing physical or emotional harm to the children....
The Government on the other hand has clearly caused emotional harm to the children by taking them away from their Parents. This whole ordeal will probably haunt them the rest of their lives. The Government has also clearly caused harm to the Family financially. The Government has clearly caused emotional harm to the Parents and to the Grandparents and other relatives.
Actually I'm confused about this whole erotica thing. Seems to me that this is normal thing for Parents to give children a bath. Did the police suspect that the Parents were being aroused by giving their children a bath? Was there something in the photos that showed some kind of sex act or anything like that? Or was it just the fact that they took a picture of the girls taking a bath? Was it the authorities who decided the photos were dirty? Clearly, in this case, Filth is in the eyes of the beholder and the authorities are the ones with the filthy minds. If they don't want to see photos of naked children, then don't look. Give the family some privacy!!
October 6th, 2009 at 12:51 am
Next thing you know CPS will be removing a child because Dad took a picture of Mom breastfeeding. Wait a minute, I live in Texas. It has already happened.
http://alaskalive.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=259:woman-charged-with-possession-of-child-pornography-for-taking-photos-of-herself-breastfeeding&catid=14:national-news
October 6th, 2009 at 12:59 am
Happens because there is no accountability; no penalty. Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes - all benefit except the children and their parents. We are becoming a nation of Lemmings. To all. Just why do articles lack names of the CPS and Police? The Perps. The actual people who perpetrate these acts. Please, some sanity; please, stop towing the company line; please. Do it and those people act differently when all know who they are and what they are doing. It works. Three people are responsible. One Cop, One social worker and one ADA. Thats that.
Steve0027
October 6th, 2009 at 1:13 am
I read stories like this one and it makes me loose faith in CPS, Police, Courts and attorneys.
October 6th, 2009 at 1:20 am
Ray Ramirez said "If all parties are told that they will be held accountable then all the parties will take care to have proper guidelines and the number of frivolous arrest would fall drastically. "
Unfortunately Ray, as you know it just don't work that way. There's too many jobs that rely on overzealous law making and frivolous arrests. There is a huge hungry monster that has to be fed.
pjk Says: "...We have absolutely out-of-control government intrusion into people's lives. And it's only going to get worse with the current bunch in power. "
If you are referring to the Democrats you are only half right. Truthfully, how much different are Democrats and Republicans?
The Libertarian Party believes the government should get out of our private lives.
(On a seperate note, The Libertarians believe the way to decrease government spending is to literately decrease the size of the government on all levels)
October 6th, 2009 at 1:25 am
Send this article to my parents in New Jersey and tell them to get rid of that picture of me standing naked in the crib, before CPS takes me away from them. Do it now! I'll be 53 in two weeks, never spent time in foster care and don't expect to start now.
By the way, I am not being disrespectful, I am taking the absurdity of our society as run by CPS, paranoid governments and paranoid citizens one step further in the life of absurdity. Let's pull the plug on CPS before the pull the plug on the rest of the American family.
October 6th, 2009 at 1:46 am
Oh, how surprising? How Soviet. We need more gulags too.
Whoever supports CPS and their lies and abuse supports the sickest abuses and molestation to ever hit any society.
The worst predators have always historically hunted in packs, in the name of saving those they molest and abuse.
October 6th, 2009 at 2:01 am
Mooshoo,
Are you talking about the Libertarian party that elected the anti-drug, warmongering, anti-choice (by convenience) Bob Barr - to run for president? My personal endorsement was - vote for who ever you want - DO NOT VOTE for BOB BARR. In many ways, the Libertarian party is a self-contradictory idea.. and if its political instantiation is proving that much more.
As for the anti-parent, overzealous enforcement usually acts much more against innocent regular people - why? Are all the bad people already taken care of?
pjk,
"I look at my American flag and wonder what exactly it stands for anymore."
What did you think it stood for? One nation, under god, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all? Especially, the last part just gets the giggles out of me.
October 6th, 2009 at 3:11 am
Christian America being undermined by a Zionist conspiracy? That is so off topic. This is about family pictures being presumed to be kiddie porn by people we have enable to do this.
What we have here is thought crime. The picture may be innocent but it is determined to be 'kiddie porn' because some viewer may be aroused. It's not only subjective and irrational but attacks thoughts instead of actions. It means you have to care what someone thinks about an object, not the object itself.
On European social sites you see parents in the tub with their children and pets too. Europeans have few body taboos and naked childern running around is considered normal and having nothing to do with sex. Some of the statuary subjects here would get the artists arrested in the US. Living here one begins to understand how odd we are as a culture.
There are certain fallacies to the whole concept of 'kiddie porn' law in that it really exists to attack the viewer and producer rather than defend the rights of the subject. Especially when young adults are included in the definition of children. This becomes apparent when a person under 18 makes a 'sexy' picture of themselves and is subject to prosecution. Nor can a person, when over 18, have the right to their earlier work product. It's a strange concept subject to abuse.
Again, when the focus is on how something may be viewed rather than what is actually occurring abusive prosecution is sure to follow.
October 6th, 2009 at 3:33 am
As I read the first few sentences the name of Joseph McCarthy springs to mind.
As I consider that this is nothing more than a hysteria whipped up by the over active imaginations of feminist misanthropes - I recall Salem, Massachusetts 1692.
And where is Ed Morrow?
Kris.
October 6th, 2009 at 3:55 am
Were they removed from the sex offender registry?! Did Lisa get her job back?! This is one of the dumbest stories in a long time. I guess they will come after me next if they ever see the picture of my daughter that I took back in '92. She was in her highchair in nothing but a diaper, it was her first time eating jello, red jello. She was wearing more than she ate. It was too cute to pass up.
man i have to say this much im kinda worried now cause i have those kind of photos of my two kids one is in sink cause they had diarhea and it had a sprayer and it was all over so i just gave her a quick bath its just the upper part and my son one time had to take a bath in a blue round tub cause there was something wrong with our water at the time and i took a picture of that i just cant believe how sick our government is anymore. i guess you can learn shit from games!!!!
gta san andreas the man known only as truth says to cj whats wrong you sick he goes no its our government that is sick funny how these hippies all are wise to the government
October 6th, 2009 at 6:36 am
This is another example of a situation taken out of perspective and the CPS jumping the gun. What has our society come that a parent has to walk on egg shells in fear that he/she can not take an innocent picture of their child. Crazy word we live in.
October 6th, 2009 at 7:58 am
This is exactly why I don't take pictures of my children. Every photo I have was taken at school or by a professional photographer.
Really, it's about time the rest of America joined us ex-fathers and ex-husbands in the life of covvering your ass, 24/7.
And some people out there think that somehow it's going to be *better* when our government gets totally involved in our health care. Imagine what it's going to be like when these people are MORE involved in your daily life.
Hey, it's for the chidrenz, tho.
October 6th, 2009 at 8:27 am
About 20 years ago a brand new mother called the the hospital's breast feeding care center number but dialed the wrong number from the local municipal directory. All she asked was how to hold her child correctly while breast feeding him or her. The police arrived at her home and although the new born was in plain site and the fact that she was a breast feeding obvious they arrested her for sex with a minor. This kind of plain stupidity has been around for years. If you think that the police have the discretion to let the chief's son of with a warning they most certainly have the discretion to and the ability to discern between a child molester and a breast feeding mother of a new born. The government is a mafia and everyone is line for their cut.
October 6th, 2009 at 8:33 am
This just doesn't make sense! Google "nudism" (ie: the lifestyle choice) and you'll find millions of nude family pics. According to the literature anyway, these sorts of non-erotic pics have always been protected under the 1st amendment.
I think I would drop a HUGE lawsuit on Walmart, on the police, and on the state. These idiots will continue their relentless attack of our rights until they have some incentive not to do so. I'm not one for lawsuits, but in this case, I would feel that it is my civic duty to provide them with that incentive.
October 6th, 2009 at 8:48 am
CPS in this country is nothing but a hugh big goverment take over. They have one of the bigest number of nuts and flakes for employees. If you come under that label . Get you self out of the organization. You are caught up in a travisty. God help any one thats gets a CPS employee at your door.
October 6th, 2009 at 8:50 am
"PolishKnight Says:
October 5th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
Funny story:"
No.... it wasn't.
October 6th, 2009 at 8:52 am
People in the US are used to being cared for and do not know how to take care of themselves. that's why we have Guardianships that takecontrol from the family and manage the elder's money,where they should be, what meds to take and who to see.
Re:children the governemnt knows that people can not be trusted to raise or educate their children, that why you have parents who allow children to become overweight, hence reportsy of DCF taking custody of children, and know this....
Government needs to take over all aspects of Americans's life, tell then when to work,where to park, where to cross the street, we are not to far from there now!
It's only by degrees that soon you will find cameras watching your everymove! Big brother is watching you always...stop pretending you have rights, You have NO rights! the sooner you realize this, the easier it will lfor government to care for the children! which belong to the state, not you.
October 6th, 2009 at 8:53 am
I don't fault the Wal-Mart employee. He/she isn't trained to decide what is child porn and what is not. All he/she did was to report it, it's not his/her job to investigate. I fault the police and CPS for not using some common sense. Unfortunately, there have been cases of police missing real abuse, even when reports are made. The most recent and apalling being the case of the woman who was abducted for 17 years, in spite of a number of calls from concerned neighbors. So the police have adoped a defensive posture where everything gets investigated, so no one can be blamed for missing a real case of abuse. It's the police equivalent of practicing "defensive medicine" instead of using judgement and common sense.
October 6th, 2009 at 9:05 am
I had nearly forgotten what CAS/CPS did to my family on December 4, 2008. Jim Maloney, his supervisor Sandi Griffiths and her team leader Ivan Peters gave ascent and approval to illegally hold my children at school while Jim Maloney and Sandy Griffiths EXTORTED a signature from me THREATENING to place my children in foster care if I did not concede, comply and otherwise do as I was told! Big mistake!
Here is a video interview of my two children and what they had to say about that horribly shocking day. http://vimeo.com/5023797 All this by the mere hear say of my vindictive ex-wife. No investigation, no proof just the echos of an angry woman is enough for CAS/CPS to go on a rampage without considering what impact it has on the children who they falsely claim to be protecting.
Now I have recently received CAS/CPS file disclosure (about 1,000 pages) and their dirty secret is starting to unfold. Biggest violation of the law by CAS/CPS is child protection worker Jim Maloney produced a misleading and apparently perjured affidavit to the police who investigated the crimes against my children and are attempting to sweep it under the rug.
Patrick Lake, CEO of the York Region Children's Aid Society is refusing to talk with me about this serious matter of his staff producing an affidavit with the apparent purpose to mislead a police investigation! His assistant tells me he is busy with meetings etc. Sure. Then when I go public Patrick Lake seems annoyed, bitter and angry.
But wait! Perjured affidavits are produced all the time. Here is one recent incident by the Ontario Office of the Children's Lawyer (They are the lawyers that represent children in family law.) Read the story here www.CanadaCourtWatch.com top story.
For those living in Ontario, Canada, please take a look at this comprehensive piece of material that Court Watch has produced dealing with the matter of CAS(CPS) illegally intruding into the lives of children and families at schools. A very well written document worth taking the time to read. http://www.canadacourtwatch.com/Studies/SchoolsAndCASGuide.pdf Anyone that wishes to comment outside of Ontario, even in the USA would be welcomed.
In my view the only way to deal with these TYRANTS is to use their own mechanism of the law to take them down one small bite at a time. Sue them!!! And sue them LARGE!!! Overload the system and it will crash and fail! File motions, issue Statements of Claims, write letters, demand written responses, tape/video record everything, keep a daily log. Pankaj was right that even going to jail, rather than committing suicide is better as that too bogs the system down.
Some promising news and feedback that our efforts are being felt. My colleague Vern Beck attended a seminar near Toronto put on by women, I believe feminists, about DV. What they have realized and are concerned about is that there will be backlash from men. THEY ARE RIGHT ABOUT THAT!
Feminists have gone too far! Government is intruding too deep! DV is debunked. Women are as violent if not more than men. Citizens, parents need to take back the control of our lives, our families our children. I am not at all surprised that the worker at the photo lab called police. The propaganda that CAS/CPS pushes on society, especially at schools is to report ANY considered child abuse for them to investigate. They say to report it even if in doubt and their highly skilled staff will determine if in fact a child is in need of protection. This ensures that CAS/CPS workers have jobs for a long time, while the actual well being of our children and families is no part of this process as can be seen what happened to this family that dared to take a normal picture of their daughters in the bath. Simply ridiculous is what this is.
We need to continue to push hard and we WILL succeed!
Attila
October 6th, 2009 at 9:25 am
Yes, people want more government in their lives and this is more of what they will get. AFter all, they want our children to attend more school. People better start waking up before it is too late. CPS and police at fault. Our children were taken from us a few years ago over a diaper rash and we spent over $60000 to get our children back. That was their college funds. I pray that many more will get involved and say enough is enough. What about the story of mom in Michigan who was only trying to help other parents with their children and because she did it more than 4 weeks they said she could not do it anymore? She was getting them off to school . What is going on with our country? Where is common sense? Wake UP America and speak up! Get involved and don't be afraid.
October 6th, 2009 at 9:58 am
The sad part is... and I truly hope this couple wins their lawsuit... is that the government and even Wal-Mart will be spared this embarressment because they acted within "the law". And even if they win big time, no amount of money will ever replace the emotional damage they've received at the hands of our government. This is a scary world (the US) we live in which has no accountability. More than likely this crime will be swept under the rug by the government and media like so many other travesties of justice we have seen in our lifetimes. It's sad, it's sickening and it's something we'll continue to read about and deal with for a long, long, long time.
As a father of two children who are my world, my thoughts go out to that couple and their children in the hope they're able to recover their lives.
October 6th, 2009 at 10:10 am
No.
We are at fault for allowing our government to turn into this.
Lay the blame where it belongs.
October 6th, 2009 at 10:53 am
I think it's come time to start applying things like the Sixth and Fifth Amendments- there's no Due Process with this stuff. Moreover, the laws, as written, are typically put into the Civil code sections and then they use that to "prove up" a case of Criminal activity using the lax rules in the Civil space to "investigate" and then try you in the Criminal space (Which raises questions of things like double jeopardy (you tried me on the cause in question in the Civil court system...you can't really do it for Criminal then...). The Sixth typically nukes their initial case from orbit per Crawford v. Washington and the Fifth actually bars most of the laws they're using on Due Process grounds- and we won't get into the varied and many failures to abide by the Fourth to begin with.
If you can make things like this stick on Civil Rights Violations, this will stop as there's jail time for the eager CPS people and Civil damages waiting for the State. You've just got to fight for your rights- and they typically pick on people that don't know them or can't mount a campaign to defend them as they're less educated or too poor to retain counsel. Enough cases of this nature where people do prison time and the State ends up owing many millions to people over it and it'll stop.
October 6th, 2009 at 11:03 am
I hope everyone paid attention to what Armageddon said. "We" have elected people like Obama and now we are upset when our liberties are taken away. Pay attention to who is in office, folks.
October 6th, 2009 at 11:07 am
I hope this family wins BIG time!!!!! How sad that parents cannot take innocent pictures of their children in their own home to share as a legacy to their family's "good times" for future reference and yet child pornographers post their filth daily and never suffer a nano-second of investigation, let alone prosecution. Further, they hide behind the "freedom of speech/expression" amendment. There is a BIG difference in what our forefathers intended and what these filthmongers claim! It should have been obvious to the Police and CPS caseworkers when--IF--they viewed the other photos on the clip that these were FAMILY pictures, nothing more!
October 6th, 2009 at 11:17 am
Orwellean state agencies making determinations of child neglect and abuse usurp any court of competent jurisdiction having a hearing and rendering a reasonable decision BEFORE an action occurs.
The average training for an investigator gets in any of the states is approximately 40 hours. No degree, no review of administrative guideline review and very little understanding of child rearing since most are too young to be parents or are single parents themselves.
Police and CPS agencies take action without real and substantive "due process" because legislators have passed state laws allowing them to "take children" on little evidence and a minimal hearing process.
Those legislators are typically duly elected by voters whom prescribe themselves to some "moral imperative" in the name of their respective religious fantaticisms.
I'm a firm Believer but I am often appauled at what non-authentic Christians believe which directly contradicts the doctrine in scripture. They obviously skipped or missed "1 Thessolonians 4:11...the part that clearly states "Mind your own business".
The reality is that more children are harmed in foster care situations and eventual multi-million dollar suits against the state result because their own respective screening and backgroung checks of those tasked with caring for the children is severely . The former doesn't even broach trauma induced by their removal from the homes and separation from their parents.
Florida's Dept. of Children and Families can not account for 600+ children lost in their system and stories continue to prove that immediate removal of children without a formal trial and final verdict is unwise and provides poorly trained state CPS workers with too much power and responsibility without any accountability.
Write your state legislators or vote for new representation to change laws that allow the above to occur on the presumption of guilty until proven innocent.
October 6th, 2009 at 11:52 am
I support the blog above that says it is all of our faults this happens(well except for me) because Amerians sit by and allow it to happen. This is a government of the people for the people. When Americans sit by and allow this to happen they give consent to the government to do these things. Time to start protesting. Get away from this blog and get out there and protest against these things. You know if only ten percent of Americans protested these sorts of things wouldn't happen anymore. Think about it, if one in ten, that is 30 million people, got out there and protested, don't you think things would change. But for some reason not even one in ten Americans are willing to stand up to make a differnce.
October 6th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
We (citizens) do not hold your local governments accountable. many do not pay attention on election day nor do they participate in the discussion. too many just vote for who the news or hollywood tell them to vote for. Participate, drive the discussion, vote. someone else said it much better: "people get the government they deserve." Get involved and change the discussion. Ask about this at town hall meetings and other venues.
October 6th, 2009 at 12:13 pm
Remember everyone, IT'S OK TO LOSE YOUR CIVIL RIGHTS because it's FOR THE CHILDREN.
Please remember the children.
/sarcasm
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Also, I saw a naked kid in the tub ON AMERICA'S FUNNIEST VIDEOS... I want Tom Bergeron arrested IMMEDIATELY!!!!!
October 6th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
Frank Says: October 6th, 2009 at 10:53 am
Linda Oakley Says: October 6th, 2009 at 11:07 am
Both these posts make a lot of sense. Frank has brought forward a very good strategy to fight the State tyrants and people should use it. I fought against CAS/CPS in Ontario and had my file closed. Now they will be held accountable both criminally and civilly.
Linda has brought to light that the REAL makers of child porn are hiding and getting away with it while innocent families pay their price of crime.
A good friend of mine a former Computer Forensic Police Officer in Toronto told me that as far as child pornography goes the difficulty is there is a computer running somewhere in an attic in some country where N.A. authorities can not get at to shut it down and charge the criminals. This is a global network and local efforts will not solve it.
How foolish it is that this family had to spend $70,000 plus other damages to deal with a simple bathtub photo of their children I hope they sue the child protection workers and the cops personally as well to send a strong message not to overstep their boundaries!
Attila
October 6th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
The following comment from the article demonstrates the more important issue in this case:
"In passing, I should mention the obvious - that anyone who believes that photos of naked five-year-olds in the bathtub constitute erotica has a lot more issues than the parent who took the pictures. He/she needs to get psychological help."
My own similar story:
I had taken pictures of my daughters in the bathtub a few years ago. They were 3 and 5 years old at the time. In one of the pictures, my 5-year-old happened to be standing up as she - laughing hysterically - poured water on her head, although at the time I didn't see the significance of the fact that she was standing.
My ex wife commissioned my 9-year-old to come to my house (she had prevented him from coming for months prior to that) to retrieve the picture. The picture was then presented to the Children's Aid Society in an attempt to suggest that I was a threat to my children. Each of my children was then questioned with what you can imagine, I am sure, were very disturbing questions.
I was found to not be a threat to my children. Nevertheless, given my children's mother's decision to involve my oldest son in her covert actions, my children should not have been questioned at all, especially since this was the third or fourth attempt to falsely accuse me up to this point. (More followed - all investigated by CAS as well.)
Needless to say, our CAS system, especially in London, Ontario, Canada is very, very broken.
October 6th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
This is the kind of horrifying idiocy that has been going on for at least thirty years. I remember the same circumstances in a case in Los Angeles during the 1980s. It was despicable then and it still is. It's the people who turn these parents in (business employees) and the authorities (read that as law enforcement) who "see" a problem with the pictures that should be locked up and put on those idiotic sex offender lists.
I'm 55 years old and my folks took some home movies of us in the tub so I guess they both should be locked up. Let's see, my mom is 83 years old and my dad is ... DEAD.
This culture is way too hung up about sex. For all of their puritanical stupidity, they sure do like looking for it in everything OTHER PEOPLE do. Sounds more like they need to deal with their own repressed sexual issues.
"Ahh, I'm sick and tired of hearing things
From uptight, short-sighted, narrow-minded hypocrites.
All I want is the truth now.
Just gimme some truth now."
*** Applicable excerpt from John Lennon's "Gimme Some Truth"
October 6th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
Let your voices be heard. The government has crossed over to a point where you are guilty until proven innocent at huge emotional and financial cost. Do something to stand up for you, your family, your country but do stand up. Tea party express, town hall, letters to politicians, whatever. This bullying is only a continuation of a corrupt government and yes, whomever said in essence it is about job security - their job security at the expense of every person in America. Study their tactics and apply them against them. That is Grayson's plan. Have you ever noticed that whatever the government says a program is, that it is the direct opposite? that means that if they say "it's for the children" we know already it is not.
October 6th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
There's a vast difference between nudity and sex, or nudity and pornography. You can have either one without the other. I agree that it's excessive to have this couple arrested.
Having said that, I never liked "naked" pictures of children. Even though it's not pornographic, I still feel as though it borders on exploitative, since the children are too young to understand the significance of being naked. I wouldn't have this problem with it if the whole family were naked -- sort of like naturist families do. In parts of Europe and (fewer) parts of the United States, entire families go naked at beaches and lakes and backyard swimming holes, and it's completely innocent, and no one's being singled out. What strikes me as odd is that the people who take pictures of naked children, arguing that it's beautiful and delightful, would usually balk at the idea of themselves being naked, as adults, in the same photos. "That would be dirty!" they say, even if, again, there's no sexual activity in the photos. How is a photo of a naked adult (posing consensually) automatically "dirty" if a photo of a naked child (who doesn't understand nudity and can't really give consent) automatically "wholesome"?
I don't see what the parents in this story did as child pornography. I just wish everyone appearing naked in photos would be giving consent.
October 6th, 2009 at 4:11 pm
The irony of this whole situation is the store's policy. "Child porn" is in the eye of the beholder, obviously. If the store doesn't have a reporting policy - NO ONE is in trouble. NO ONE gets hurt.
I would never advocate turning a blind-eye to obvious child abuse. But a humongous, successful lawsuit will make such policies go away. Without such a policy - Walmart isn't in trouble. The store employee isn't in trouble. The family isn't in trouble. The child isn't in trouble.
The story never exists in the first place.
October 6th, 2009 at 5:13 pm
I sent my brother who's working in Saudi some pictures of our family. When I realized one of the photos I sent was a pic. of our boys in the bathtub (even though it was only chest up), I immediately emailed him and told him he may not want to open the batch of pics because one was a bathtub scene. I was worried the Saudi authorities (who screen emails) may have a problem with this and wanted to keep my brother safe. Little did I know that I, here in CAnada, was the one who should have been worried!
And to Attila and the others who mention the problems with CPS in Ontario, I also know of a couple whose children were taken away. Before the children were returned (there was no wrong-doing found) one of the children (about 5 years old) had a cold. Apparently the CPS workers left a bottle of cold medication beside the bed by accident. The child drank the entire bottle in the night. It is just lucky he didn't OD and die. Child protective services were never held responsible for this act. The couple just wanted to get as far away from Ontario and the CPS as possible. They moved to another province as soon as they could.
October 6th, 2009 at 6:39 pm
We're going to end up like England, where they frown on taking pictures of fully clothed children playing outside:
http://www.flickr.com/groups/onthestreet/discuss/72157617918495261/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1214039/Paranoia-surrounding-paedophiles-stops-taking-pictures-children.html
October 6th, 2009 at 11:30 pm
2ndwife too. I had a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia as a neonatal nurse. She made the mistake of videotaping in the nursery and was found out. She was deported within 24 hours back to Canada.
Every year there are NINETY children that die in the care of social services in Ontario as reported in the Toronto Star. There are even more children in the care of CAS who end up using drugs, turning tricks, drinking and smoking under age.
What needs to be understood is that this is a HUGE, HUGE money making machine. It is a multi BILLION dollar industry. CAS/CPS does not care about the well being of children nearly as much as drawing in the public money. There are some really good social workers such as Jim Maloney who was so disgusted with what goes on at CAS that he drove his truck full of propane tanks into the CAS building in London Ontario committing suicide in an attempt to send a strong message. My own CAS worker who accidentally shares the same name was not even aware of it.
Support bill 93 which would provide provisions to hold CAS accountable by their party and not self regulated as they are now.
Attila
October 7th, 2009 at 4:32 am
The $75,000.00 was the sole focus and purpose of this atrocity once the idiot Wal-Mart employee (who no doubt was prompted by their training) notified police.
October 7th, 2009 at 7:59 am
The government,legal system, walmart, and CPS are a joke. They work the opposite way. They protect they guilty and prosecute the innocent. Wake up America! I hope the parents win and walmart/CPS/police are brought up on charges!
October 7th, 2009 at 9:28 am
Attila L. Vinczer Says: October 6th, 2009 at 11:30 pm
Correction. That should have read
Support bill 93 which would provide provisions to hold CAS accountable by a third party and not self regulated as they are now.
Attila
October 7th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
I can not belive this, don't they have better things to do. I am a foster parent and adoptive parent. And i never heard a case like this. I hope then get all there money back and more. What is this world coming to.
October 7th, 2009 at 5:11 pm
Speaking of Texas Justice, I have not experienced any. I did howevere experienced a great deahl of INJUSTICE in the past 4 years.
It is not supprising howevere, since Judges, Lawyers and those that placed to protect our rights, are the first to violate them, and they are protected from Lawsuits.
Yakov
October 7th, 2009 at 5:34 pm
I am basically sympathetic to the tenor of both the story and the responses: Government is far too intrusive into the lives of everyday people. However, before I would personally form an opinion in this particular case, I would need to see the actual pictures. We are taking Demaree's word that "Ninety-nine percent of the families in America have these exact same photos." Maybe yes, maybe no. Hard to say without seeing any evidence.
October 8th, 2009 at 4:36 am
now if the people started holding CPS and there familias accountable for there "CPS" actions I bet they would come more down to Earth..lets face it the folks at CPS have nothing to fear, there is no personal loss for there actions, nor any personal financial loss..
October 8th, 2009 at 11:51 am
I have pictures of my son age 6-7 goofing around naked in the tub with shampoo shaped like a beard. Those pictures of him were processed at a walmart. Thank God that didnt happen here. Hopefully the employee at walmart and walmart itself will be held liable, along with the agencies of the state for big bucks. Yes David, here is one other parent of who knows of what the percentage is of having pictures of there kids in the tub having innocent fun. This society and government on family issues is paranoid, and in decline. I have witnessed it first hand. I agree with the majority of the comments posted on this.
October 8th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
Yes Greg - I have three kids as well and have plenty of pictures of them naked in the tub. My point is that there are pictures and there are pictures. Unless we see the particular Demaree pictures we should be careful about making judgements as to whether they represent innocent fun or are inappropriate.
October 8th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
So in an infinite effort to live in and create a perfect society, we need to perfect how to perfectly intrude in the personal lives of sound families in an effort to potentially keep every child perfectly safe.
Now that makes a lot of sense. After all it is to protect children. Right?
I believe that most parents are perfectly capable of keeping their children safe all on their own. Our species would not have evolved if parents did not keep their children instinctively safe.
We should be concerned about helping real victims of child abuse, child sexual exploitation or what ever need a child may have. Bring law and order to the internet where most of the child pornography seems to flow. I don’t recall ever hearing of any child pornography magazines or videos at your local stores or the flea market.
We should not cast a net so wide that it traps the good with the bad. Families need the freedom to breathe, live and enjoy life as a parent or child.
Attila
October 8th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
the definition of Appropriate is what?,,there is no true definition, it is interpretive it is not substantive, it has no one true meaning, what is appropriate to you or I is seen as intrusive to another, so where is the line drawn as appropriate,? where is it written in law as sound?
if it is not sound as a whole having a absolute meaning then there is no basis to comply legally with it...we live in a society that is perverted with meanings, that is ran by emotions instead of logic, that people can financially gain from while sitting in a proposed public office and interpreting the alleged law while padding there office with monies from said alleged illegal adverse actions of other parents thanks to federal kickbacks, and in doing so can not be held liable for any actions under the pretense it was for the children and they CPS"OCS""CSSD" had a "Concern"
October 8th, 2009 at 6:02 pm
Wow..this is our society who can't tell the difference...yet the family was required to register as a sex offenders.
What if they continued and prosecuted this case..the perverts are child protective services and the police who have the mentality to interpret this as sexual
October 8th, 2009 at 6:10 pm
The problem exist in the new laws interpreting what is sexually offensive requiring registration as a sex offender....As the article read..police and the Child Protective services said 99% of parents should be registered as sex offenders....this means your next..except this time they may just prosecute you......change the damn law to identify real predators
October 8th, 2009 at 8:20 pm
I curse these agencies everytime I pray, they as well as the DSCE are a reproach in the face of God.
October 9th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
David, understand your point. Double check post by Danny on oct. 05th @ 3:11pm. He seems to have some insight on what the pictures depicted.
October 10th, 2009 at 4:28 pm
The only reason why this nonsense is allowed to persist and even be perpetuated is that lawyers make money from it. Big money.
I'd bet dollars to donuts that once the cops got hold of the pictures, they took them to a prosecutor who thought that laying charges on the couple would be a good way for some of his buddies in the law profession to make some money, while he got to keep his job and could score some 'tough on pedophiles' points at the same time.
We don't really need to wonder if the Spanish Inquisition will ever resurrect itself. It's already here. Witch-hunting, witch-burning Puritans are alive and well too.
At least the Europeans are smart enough not to fall for this insanity. Although the EU government in Brussels has its own share of nuttiness to foist on the citizenry.
October 24th, 2009 at 2:58 am
[...] CPS Seizes Couples' Kids, Puts Them in Foster Care over Toddler Bathtub Photos [...]
November 17th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
Wow, this is amazing. People can bash their kids heads in and Child protective services looks the other way. BUUUUUUT parents who take photos on their kids in the tub, getting bathed lose their child. Does anyone else see something wrong with this??