News on Seattle-Area False Rape Accusation Case Is Even Worse Than Thought...
March 24th, 2008 by Glenn Sacks, MA for Fathers & FamiliesLast week Tim, a reader, wrote:
"This sort of story should send chills...A college professor spent nine days in jail, and was suspended from his job because of a false rape accusation. The lying accuser was sentenced -- to EIGHT (8) days in jail. That's right, eight days for the criminal as opposed to nine days for the innocent man. This is not to mention suspension from the college where he worked, and the agony he most assuredly endured over facing 30 years in prison for something he didn't do.
"The enlightened judge at sentencing made sure to add that the lie will make it harder for real victims to seek help. Ah, what about the innocent man, judge? Has it occurred to you that your unjust sentence will make it harder for innocent victims of false accusations?"
A more detailed story is available here.
This is bad enough, but apparently the reality is far worse. Bruce Miller of
www.MenDV.com sent me this letter today:
"According to the court house manager, after looking at the docket, the jail time was converted to work crew time, which would mean no jail time was served."
Bruce wrote the King County Prosecutor's Office and received confirmation of this from deputy chief of staff Ian Goodhew of the Prosecutor's Office. For trying to ruin this man's life, the woman gets the equivalent of the punishment for a few speeding tickets.
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March 24th, 2008 at 1:35 pm
So basically for lying to police and nearly putting an innocent man away for a few decades she got community service? And light community service at that. I would be very interested in hearing a feminist explain this away.
Jeana? Where are you?
March 24th, 2008 at 1:37 pm
On False Rape Allegations, A Judge's Pious Words Are Not Enough
"On March 19, 2008, the Seattle Times reported on a story whose ending could have been much worse but should have been much better. (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004291649_false19e.html) The story is of a woman, Katherine M. Clifton, who manufactured false evidence to frame a man and then lodged a false rape charge against him. As a result of the allegation, the man spent nine days in jail and was placed on leave from his teaching job at a college. "
"A March 21, 2008 article in London's Daily Mail illustrates just how much worse the ending to this story could have been. It reports on another innocent man, but in that case, the false accusation of rape drove him to suicide. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=541189&in_page_id=1766&ito=1490) "
"In the Seattle case, when Judge Peter Nault accepted the woman's guilty plea to the charge of making a false rape accusation, he stated: "That we hurry to castigate a person who turns out to be entirely innocent ... I don't know how it could be worse." "
"So, what was wrong with the Seattle story's ending? Consider how Judge Nault chose to punish Clifton's opprobrious actions. According to the article, he sentenced her to 365 days BUT suspended 357 days and he ordered her to pay a $5,000 fine BUT suspended $4,750."
"Thus, an innocent man ends up in jail for nine days and the woman who made the false accusation, and clearly spent a lot of effort fabricating false evidence, will only have to serve eight days. The innocent man was placed on leave from his job. The woman who planned and carried out the crime has to pay $250."
"Please contact the Seattle Times and ask for a follow up story regarding why Clifton only received a slap on the wrist for a crime that, after murder and rape, is about as heinous as they come. Please emphasize the following points: "
1. The innocent man served nine days in jail and faced the loss of his teaching career;
2. Judge Peter Nault (please mention him by name) knew that the accuser had gone to some effort to fabricate phony email and a phony court order implicating the innocent man;
3. Considering the egregious circumstances surrounding the case, Judge Nault's decision – to require the villain to serve less time than the innocent man served and to require her to pay only $250 for her crimes – means that his statement "That we hurry to castigate a person who turns out to be entirely innocent ... I don't know how it could be worse" turns out to be nothing more than empty piety.
Here's the contact information:
Suki Dardarian
Managing Editor, News Coverage and Enterprise
sdardarian@seattletimes.com
Carole Carmichael
Assistant Managing Editor, Features
ccarmichael@seattletimes.com
Letters to the Editor:
Letters Editor
The Seattle Times
PO Box 70
Seattle, WA 98111
opinion@seattletimes.com
(Include your full name (no initials), home address and daytime and evening telephone numbers for verification)
Again, please mention Judge Peter Nault by name. If judges realize that they're going to be remembered by name, they may start making their actions fit their pious words.
http://www.mediaradar.org/alert20080324.php
March 24th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
This judge needs to lose his job. What a disgrace.
March 24th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
After thinking a bit about the line that resonates so often about false accusations: "the lie will make it harder for real victims to seek help" I have decided in the interrim that it is caused by the reality that many women, and anyone who supports the Duluth model, do not consider men to be humans, or worthy of protection from the law. Thus, in analyzing every effect, one only needs to analyze the effect on women or children.
The judges do know on what side their bread is buttered.
And they may well know that interested caring fathers like myself want to put the judges in jail, put their children in foster homes, and take away their ill gotten wealth to serve as college funds for all of the children their hate backed rulings have disenfranchised.
They should feel lucky, the French used the guillotine for the same type of people.
March 24th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
Unfathomable.
Most learned judge: it is not justice when the punishment meted out to a criminal is so indisputably less than the harm she inflicted.
March 24th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
I just got through reading the other blog entry and comments.
After reading the comparative sentencing, I'm stunned beyond words. Unbelievable. -_-
This case needs far more attention.
March 24th, 2008 at 2:14 pm
This is my letter to the Seattle Times:
When chivalry and feminism interact..........look out men!
I must say I am deeply disturbed once again of the gender bias that takes place in courts today, this time by Judge Peter Nault. Like the Duke Rape case, a male victim almost has his life ruined (tarnished reputation, decades of jail time, etc.) while a female (Katherine Clifton) receives a slap on the wrist for a false rape allegation. It appears that once again men are treated as if they are disposable (Cathy receives no prison whatsoever, when the man would have received decades)!! Judge Peter Nault had some good points, but I believe that his chivalry (i.e. gender bias) got the best of him vis-a-vis Katherine Clifton.
Herjury (bait-rape) is a serious men's rights issue, and I believe it stems from a culmination of judge chivalry and misguided feminism that teaches us that a woman's word is always the gospel truth. Lying about rape is no laughing matter, because it destroys men's lives. As such, it should be treated as a serious issue with serious consenquences. Just recently a man actually killed himself after being falsely accused of rape (see http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/2008/03/22/man-kills-himself-after-false-rape-claim-86908-20358684/). Males are human beings with feelings, and should be treated as such.
March 24th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
Stephen hits the nail on the head. Men dont count in the Western criminal justice system. America's treatment of men is the mirror of hardcore Islamic treatment of women in these types of cases. When we hear in the MSM about the Saudis punishing a woman for talking to a man unrelated to her it seems so primitive to our sensibilities. Yet what happened in Seattle causes a fraction of the outrage. I guess we are all Infidels on here for complaining about our lot!
March 24th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
Flip that on it's head and I think it would be more accurate. It's not that they think men don't deserve protection of the law, it's that they think females actually are perpetual children, incapable of being full adults, and therefore worthy of more protection of the law due to their reduced capacity.
It's a strange world when you realize that MRM think of women as equal, and feminism thinks of women as perpetual children.
March 24th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
But what you DON'T hear in the MSM is that the Saudi's punish that man as well, and usually with an equal punishment.
March 24th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
I'd like an explanation as to why this woman doesn't belong in the sex offenders registry.
March 24th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
Did anyone catch thios line....
Clifton was "an extremely articulate and credible victim," said Sgt. John Urquhart, Sheriff's Office spokesman. "There was no reason to suspect she wasn't telling the truth."
Uh...I thought we were INNOCENT until PROVEN guilty. Not guilty based on how well-spoken some wacko is.
March 24th, 2008 at 2:24 pm
I see this astute letter in Seattle Times: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2004299691_monlets24.html
To Mr. Crouch who wrote the letter: Your point is dead on: "The notion that punishing false accusers will stifle legitimate victim complaints is ideologically driven, hyperbolic conjecture." It is perplexing, and hurtful, that some who want to raise awareness about rape feel a need to denigrate falsely accused men by minimizing their victimization. This case is an example of that. We owe it to those men to punish far more severely women who cry "rape" when no rape was committed.
March 24th, 2008 at 2:24 pm
"On July 25, Clifton told detectives she had forged a judge's signature and made up a legal document on her computer."
SHE FORGED A JUDGE'S SIGNATURE! That alone should get her 6 months!
March 24th, 2008 at 2:24 pm
Hey Glen- why don't you start the Flse Accusers Registry? that way men can know if they are living near one of these dangerous people?
March 24th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
Justin, such a registry would be helpful for men who are dating so they don't end up with a serial accuser, like this woman who falsely accused FIVE men of rape and didn't spend ANY time in jail: http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Top_News/2008/03/08/no_jail_for_womans_false_rape_charges/5377/
March 24th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
Well thats it isn't it Tim Murray? I love it when feminists say "why would any woman lie about rape?" Because you can do it anonamously, you can sue and get money, and there's no punishment if you are found to have lied. In short there isa no down side. Any more stupid questions ladies?
March 24th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Justin Says: March 24th, 2008 at 2:24 pm
"Hey Glen- why don't you start the Flse Accusers Registry? that way men can know if they are living near one of these dangerous people?"
"Judge David Bryante has said that women who make false rape allegations should be put on a permanent register."
"He said there was a good case for the setting up of a register to log the names of women who falsely accuse men of raping them. The problem has arisen because of the escalating number of false allegations being made and the fact that no official records were being kept of serial false accusers.
"Judge Bryante's comments followed the collapse of a case against a man falsely accused of raping a 16-year-old girl after police discovered she had made similar allegations against many other people. Speaking at Teesside Crown Court the judge said: "It seems to me that the case shows a need for some sort of register which may be the obverse of a Sex Offenders' Register.""
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080310172218AAuIZ2N
Feminist groups voice opposition to liar registry as "Given that the law is already so weighted against women, we should be looking at protecting them rather than targeting the few, if any, women who make false allegations. It's outrageous."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/412892.stm
March 24th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
"But what you DON'T hear in the MSM is that the Saudi's punish that man as well, and usually with an equal punishment."
Indeed, we only hear about the Taliban beating women on the street. Never mind that the vast majority of their victims are male. We especially don't hear of them punishing men for what a woman did. Of course when we do it gets turned around so that the woman is the actual victim.
The logic is thus. When a woman is punished for a man's actions, she is innocent and a victim of the patriarchy. When a man is punished for a woman's actions, women aren't seen as culpable people and are oppressed by the patriarchy.
It's feminist logic. Regardless of the objective outcome, women are always victims.
March 24th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
And, Justin, the courts don't get it: I accept that every time one of these stories is published, it feeds into the public's (sadly correct) understanding that women do lie about rape. Not all of them, but way more than the discredited 2 percent. As Prof. K.C. Johnson's book concludes, closer to 50%. How do you stop the lies? The way you stop any other crime, Judge Einstein -- you make the punishment real. You will have fewer liars and fewer innocent men ravaged by falsity.
March 24th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
Registry format-
Maybe modeled on Don't Date Him Girl .com. Anonymous posts alllowed, encouraged even, no proof necessary!
March 24th, 2008 at 3:04 pm
A few services have been set up where judges can be judged.
www.robeprobe.com allows judges to be rated on 20 criteria including " lack of gender bias"
For unpopular judges there is a Hall of Shame. Judges can be DissRobed and BenchSlapped.
Shaming the judges the way they themselves shame male victims may not be the answer. Judges are for the most part conservative and they see their role as "protectors" of women. They are also elected and being tough on crime and soft on 51% of the electorate probably doesn't hurt at the polls.
March 24th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
"Every year since 1989, in about 25 percent of the sexual assault cases referred to the FBI where results could be obtained, the primary suspect has been excluded by forensic DNA testing. Specifically, FBI officials report that out of roughly 10,000 sexual assault cases since 1989, about 2,000 tests have been inconclusive, about 2,000 tests have excluded the primary suspect, and about 6,000 have "matched" or included the primary suspect."
http://www.justice.gc.ca/en/dept/pub/hop/p8.html#foot206
"Forty-one percent of all reports are false."
"This claim comes from a study conducted by Eugene J. Kanin of Purdue University. Kanin examined 109 rape complaints registered in a Midwestern city from 1978 to 1987."
"Of these, 45 were ultimately classified by the police as "false." Also based on police records, Kanin determined that 50 percent of the rapes reported at two major universities were "false""
http://www.anandaanswers.com/pages/naaFalse.html
Michelle Anderson of Villanova University Law School reported in 2004, "no study has ever been published which sets forth an evidentiary basis for the two percent false rape complaint thesis."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194032,00.html
March 24th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
How to file a complaint against a judge in Washington state.
http://www.cjc.state.wa.us/Disc_function/confidentiality_and_complainant.htm
March 24th, 2008 at 4:54 pm
The facts are this: he spent 9 days in jail on a false rape claim before he was cleared. She was convicted of making a false claim and has to do 8 days of community service.
The question I ask is this: how did the judge get to that conclusion? Here’s my hypothesis (and it is just that, my hypothesis): The judge saw fit to confine a possible violent criminal, and freed him once the facts came out; and the woman was guilty of lying to the police, not a violent crime.
On the balance, the justice system’s actions seem to make sense. If there is a person that the police credibly believe is a violent sex criminal, it is important to remove this person from society until the guilt can be proven. It doesn’t make sense to leave the person free to commit more crimes until a conviction can be obtained. Once the credibility of such a claim is broken, or a not guilty verdict reached, then the accused should be freed. Makes sense, not totally fair to the falsely accused, but, by and large, fair to society.
For her, it, on its face, seems fair. All she did was lie in a police report; she did not commit a violent crime. With the Correction systems in the US overflowing, as such, it does not make sense to incarcerate non-violent offenders. (Unless it is Securities Fraud, they send those folks away longer than they do murders) There are people who embezzle lots of money, residential burglary, identity theft, etc that get probation and restitution.
BUT, I argue, this is not a simple crime, non-violent crime. The crime of false rape accusations creates many far reaching problems. 1) It gives manipulative women a powerful weapon in extorting results they want for vulnerable men, 2) it hardens society against real victims of rape, 3) it wastes the police’s resources, 4) it damages the falsely accused reputation irrevocably, and more examples that I can’t think of right now.
I further argue that the penalty of false accusations should be greatly increased. Lie about rape, get 10 years. Why? Because of the reasons above, and dis-incentive-izing false claims. Why do women make false claims? Because there isn’t sufficient incentive to no make false claims. Steeply increasing the penalties will discourage people from participating. Look at drunk driving laws: the penalties have gotten bad, and the crime has subsided to a great extent.
Will such an action make real victims not come forward? Very few. Here’s why I think that: because the penalty for lying about rape will be so high, the women that do come forward will be believed. Furthermore, there are claims that are legitimate but impossible to prove – coming forward on these cases will not result in a prosecution of the victim, but rather a “no-action” result. The Duke False Rape lady and the lady in this story: obvious liars and extortionists would be the types doing time under this kind of law.
Later,
B
March 24th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
I agree with Justin's suggestion that there should be a false accuser's registry.
Also, the case that is mentioned here truly is no different from the Duke lacrosse false-rape case because it involves a woman falsely accusing another man of raping her and escaping without punishment.
March 24th, 2008 at 6:00 pm
I posted the following on March 23 in http://glennsacks.com/blog/?p=1964#comments
Welcome to the wild, wacky world of Seattle, Washington!
A 26 year-old women files a false rape report. Not just a spur-of-the-moment thing, but carefully crafted with false e-mails and court documents. The DA finally smokes her out, the victim, a college professor, having been jailed for 9 days with a $500,000 bond, gets released.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004291649_false19e.html
King County District Court Judge Peter Nault called the case “one of the "saddest" he'd ever seen in court…”
Really?!? It’s nothing more than another false rape accusation that makes up the 40%-60% false rape reports. What am I missing here?
King County Deputy Prosecuting Attorney Shelby Smith said Clifton's actions will also "harm the community of sexual-assault victims," who will find their cases… treated with more scrutiny," she said.
Shelby, with 40%-60% rape reports being false, shouldn’t you already be deeply scrutinizing ALL accusations? What am I missing here?
Many posters have pointed out the horrible disparity between what the State did to the male victim vs. the female perpetrator. She was well on her way to soundly destroying an innocent man’s entire life yet walked away Scott-free.
Now focus on the King County Deputy Prosecuting Attorney, Ms. Shelby Smith’s statements, which I have reproduced above. I think from that we can presuppose what Ms. Smith asked for in terms of a fine and incarceration, can’t we? Something along the lines of "Let this poor woman go free!"?
Does anyone know how we can find out what the Deputy Prosecuting Attorney asked for? I and a thousand others would really like to know.
Was it the judge or DA that let this one slip through the cracks?
DanH
March 24th, 2008 at 6:11 pm
Well, Ms. Smith is married to a copier repair person and has managed to ring up $26,000 in credit card debut...
Google: King County Deputy Prosecuting Attorney Shelby Smith
http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:_SVgsovVepgJ:archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display%3Fslug%3Dmonmakeoversmiths%26date%3D20060422+King+County+Deputy+Prosecuting+Attorney+Shelby+Smith&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us
DanH
March 24th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
BigB says...
"If there is a person that the police credibly believe is a violent sex criminal, it is important to remove this person from society until the guilt can be proven"
The criminal is now loose to commit her "non-violent" crime on another innocent man resulting in his incarceration, loss of reputation, potential loss of job, and potential to incarcerated for many years. Yeah, I see your point.
March 24th, 2008 at 6:52 pm
Could be worse, he could have killed himself.
March 24th, 2008 at 7:02 pm
I can't think of any other false report to police as dangerous as a false rape report for two reasons:
First, typically there will be NO other evidence of the crime, so the false report is of paramount, vital importance to the police investigation. If the woman is a good liar, then she will be believed.
Second, no other false report can have such serious consequences for the victim -- there's the real prospect of decades behind bars, and the mental agony that accompanies it. We just saw where one such false report led a man to kill himself.
A false rape accusation is, short of murder, the worst thing that can happen to a man. Worse than rape itself.
March 24th, 2008 at 7:39 pm
So let me get this straight, the guy was put in jail over another persons word.
If a man made that claim of rape, a woman would never be locked up without proof. Thats sex discrimination at its core.
Rape/Sex abuse claims are the easiest thing to ruin a mans life, no proof needed, no real punishment for the false accuser.
March 24th, 2008 at 7:43 pm
So how the hell can we ever change these things?
The only way I think we'll ever see change is if we get enough women to actually believe what is going on right now. That false rape allegations are a huge problem in Western Society. Once they are tuned into what is happening to men, then and only then, will we see change. Politicians will then start making the changes that their voting class (ie, women) want them too.
Until then, it really makes one want to just withdraw from society, if you are male anyway. The message is clear, as a man you are a 2nd class citizen, and your word will never be as good as any woman's regardless of your character or her lack there of. We need our women to fight for us now, this is a battle that men cannot win. Question is are there enough woman out that who really do want true equality amongst the sexes in terms of the law? Or would most just rather keep enjoying the ride knowing they will never have to grow up and face true responsibilities.
I'm torn at times to really even want to keep fighting this thing because I feel like it is a battle we will never win, that somehow logical thinking no longer exists in this world.
March 24th, 2008 at 8:41 pm
greg said...
When we hear in the MSM about the Saudis punishing a woman for talking to a man unrelated to her it seems so primitive to our sensibilities.
Yes they do that.
Did you know they will also give that man the same punishment? Or have the media and feminists consistantly forgotten to mention that fact?
==============================
BigB asserts that false allegation is not a violent crime. I wonder if he considers kidnapping to be a crime of violence. The false accuser may not have been the agent directly engaging in any violence but her actions definitely had that outcome for this victim.
I would suggest we start to consider any false accusation resulting in arrest or incarceration of any sort in those terms. The punishment should be the same as that for kidnap.
In Australia Cornelia Rau was incorrectly detained for ten months under immigration laws. She was recently awarded $2.4 million in compensation.
In the same time frame Patrick Waring a fifteen year old was imprisoned for eleven months for a rape that never happened. His accuser admitted her motivation for lying to be victim's compensation(of up to $50,000 in West Aus). He has had no apology or compensation. As far as I've been able to find out the accuser hasn't been named or punished.
March 24th, 2008 at 8:51 pm
King County Deputy Prosecuting Attorney, Ms. Shelby Smith says: "...the community of sexual-assault victims..."
Let me repeat that:
THE COMMUNITY OF SEXUAL-ASSAULT VICITMS.
Would someone p-l-e-a-s-e tell Deputy Prosecuting Attorney Shelby Smith THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A "COMMUNITY OF SEXUAL-ASSAULT VICTIMS"!!!
Good grief, lady.
DanH
March 24th, 2008 at 9:00 pm
King County Deputy Prosecuting Attorney Shelby Smith forgets she is being rather well paid to be a strong advocate for justice, not a activist for the Marxist-Feminist or Feminist Supremacist groups.
DanH
March 24th, 2008 at 10:46 pm
The preferential treatment of females in the criminal justice system is without limits. Just today the "Barbie Bandits" - CONVICTED BANK ROBBERS - were sentenced to... probation. I think one of the pair got a near meaningless level of jail time that may amount to time served.
"Barbie Bandits." Ain't that so cute and cuddly?
March 24th, 2008 at 11:02 pm
Actually, Mister-M, the one barbie bandit has to serve 2 years of her 10 year sentence; however, their male accomplice, the teller, must serve 5 years of his 10 year sentence. Even when convicted of the very same exact crime (literally), women still get lighter sentences...
From CNN:
Ashley Miller, convicted of theft and drug distribution, was sentenced to the maximum of 10 years. She has to serve two years behind bars, with the remainder on probation.
She also has to pay at least $2,500 in restitution.
Her co-defendant, Heather Lyn Johnston, who pleaded guilty to robbery and drug use charges in August, was sentenced to 10 years probation with community service, a minimum $2,000 fine and $2,500 in restitution.
Benny Herman Allen III, who at the time of the February 27, 2007, robbery was a teller at the Bank of America in Acworth, Georgia, also was sentenced to the 10-year maximum. He's required to serve five years behind bars and pay $2,500 in restitution.
March 24th, 2008 at 11:29 pm
the programmer
"I just got through reading the other blog entry and comments.
After reading the comparative sentencing, I'm stunned beyond words. Unbelievable. -_-
This case needs far more attention."
MCA, I totally agree, someone should contact this man, and ask him how he felt during this whole travesty, and do an article on it... we need to "give this man a voice!!"
March 25th, 2008 at 8:39 am
gwallan: I do not believe that a false accusation is a violent crime; however, that does not mean that I don't think that it is a pernicious crime that greatly affects society. I think that the challenge is that because false accusation isn't a violent crime (like robbery, assault, rape, attempted murder, murder, etc) its far ranging, destructive effects aren't immediate and glaring to the justice system; and that it is the MRA's responsibility to show the justice system these effects.
To make an analogy: if I defraud a bunch of investors in a ponzai scheme, who cares, all I did was steal some money from people, and their investment money at that. In the immediate sense, no great tragedy has occurred. But once we move past the surface, my actions have caused a GREAT deal of harm. The people I defrauded lost a considerable amount of money, so they are poorer. These people I stole from are no longer trusting enough to invest, and legitimate businesses that need money to grow will not get their needed capital. Furthermore; these defrauded people will tell more people about their experience; and the secondary, tertiary, etc people will lose confidence in the capital markets and the markets will begin to fail. That reason alone is why you see people who commit securities fraud get more time than murders.
In much the same way, if the relationship between the sexes becomes so one-sided in the justice system, people will begin to lose faith in the justice system. The people in this blog have lost the faith, and I believe that we are not a small minority. As this distrust grows and expands the effectiveness of the criminal justice will begin to fail. One only needs to look at the inner city hoods to see what happens when a entire community begins to distrust the justice system. It is the destruction of trust in the system that the crime of false accusations engender that dictates that the punishment for it be severe.
Later,
B
March 25th, 2008 at 10:11 am
BigB - "On the balance, the justice system’s actions seem to make sense. If there is a person that the police credibly believe is a violent sex criminal, it is important to remove this person from society until the guilt can be proven. It doesn’t make sense to leave the person free to commit more crimes until a conviction can be obtained. Once the credibility of such a claim is broken, or a not guilty verdict reached, then the accused should be freed. Makes sense, not totally fair to the falsely accused, but, by and large, fair to society."
The founders of this nation did not think that guilty until proven innocent was fair to society. That is why they wrote the rules to be innocent until proven guilty.
If we are gonna change the rules that we live by, we'd be less hypocritical if we changed the constitution to read, "the people shall be deemed guilty until they can prove themselves innocent".
And since the wheels of justice move so slowly (since there are massive amounts of backlog in the system due to so many non-criminals being treated as criminals) any falsely accused person can be made to suffer needlessly (not that we should be concerned with victimized males-most people treated as criminals are male, but we blame the victim in their cases)
she said, he said. She was believed and he was not. Why was her story credible? Cuz they believe feminist lies that claim women do not lie
She had proof and he had proof. Her proof was falsified, but do not think that the prosecutors would wait until they had proof that could be verified.
If you are gonna change the constitution, then change its words so we'll all know what it means.
If you want it to be guilty until proven innocent as opposed to innocent until proven guilty, then work to change the constitution (or do you want ti to be guilty until proven innocent only in the case of crimes against women who want to be treated equally and who want special protections)
March 25th, 2008 at 10:24 am
Chris_C – “I'd like an explanation as to why this woman doesn't belong in the sex offenders registry.”
Cuz we're gonna have a false rape accusers registry instead....
The King of K - “Did anyone catch thios line....
Clifton was "an extremely articulate and credible victim," said Sgt. John Urquhart, Sheriff's Office spokesman. "There was no reason to suspect she wasn't telling the truth."
Uh...I thought we were INNOCENT until PROVEN guilty. Not guilty based on how well-spoken some wacko is.”
You men are guilty until proven innocent (and possibly guilty even if you werent accused and possibly guilty even if you were proven innocent - it is hard to prove a negative)....You are a man and you are guilty....
Greg – “Stephen hits the nail on the head. Men dont count in the Western criminal justice system. America's treatment of men is the mirror of hardcore Islamic treatment of women in these types of cases. When we hear in the MSM about the Saudis punishing a woman for talking to a man unrelated to her it seems so primitive to our sensibilities. Yet what happened in Seattle causes a fraction of the outrage. I guess we are all Infidels on here for complaining about our lot!”
And our matriarchy mirrors their patriarchy.......in matriarchy the feminized men sell out other men in order to make the women happy with them......women and children first (now it's children and women first and men last)....who said chivalry was dead?
Justin – “Hey Glen- why don't you start the Flse Accusers Registry? that way men can know if they are living near one of these dangerous people?”
Many others suggested the same thing (it was one of the first things I thought of before I could read everyone's posts)........
If there is to be a sex offenders list in every community, then there should be a false sex accusation list for every community listing every person (woman or man) who has made false rape or sex allegations. The list could detail some of the aspects of the lies thes people told or how they may have fabricated evidence.....The sex registry details the crimes committed, lists em based upon level of danger based upon how many offences and how recent and how severe........Thus the false sex accusers registry could list these people based upon how dangerous they are (more dangerous ones would have made more false accusations and maybe made up false evidence like this liar)....
March 25th, 2008 at 10:25 am
To anyone who thinks that a false rape allegation is not a violent crime, I must respond that this is completely beside the point. If a woman were to attack a man with a hammer and then falsely accuse him of raping her, would it make her crime of false allegation that much more severe?
This kind of reasoning is hairsplitting and will only derail the issue. Let's leave the legal semantics to the lawyers and start thinking on a much bigger scale. False rape allegations are a MORAL issue even more so than a legal issue, and in order to move the problem up the ladder, at least for publicity's sake (say, to the supreme court level), we should present it as an issue that tears at the very threads of our culture.
I think of it this way. Say a man is put in jail on a false rape allegation. He's raped in jail, contracts HIV, and dies five years later. It turns out that, beyond a doubt, the woman fabricated a false claim. This woman should, at the least, be guilty of manslaughter. All we need is ONE CASE like this, and a lawyer with enough balls, to shed a light on this terrible problem. This ONE CASE will set a precedent. We need women to KNOW that if they're busted on a false rape allegation, and anything happens to their victim in jail, there'll be hell to pay.
BTW - I'm kind of sick of the whole "Fales rape allegations make it harder for the real victims" routine. While that might be true, it minimizes the plight of innocent men. It annoys me that people constantly need to focus on women as victims. It's like saying that there is no problem unless WOMEN are suffering somehow. The PRIMARY victims of false rape allegations, as far as I'm concerned, are the people who are falsely accused. Real rape victims who might have it harder because of false rape allegations are SECONDARY victims - not only of those who falsely accuse, but because of a society that allows people to falsely accuse with no consequences.
March 25th, 2008 at 10:28 am
Mark Ruffolo – she also was ordered by the judge to pay the innocent’s man’s attorney fees which are not mentioned but they could be easily anywhere from $2,500 to $10,000. Personally I think she should go to jail, but then how would she be able to pay his attorney fees? Perhap they could ask the falsely accused male if he would rather recieve restitution or see her be punished with the same punishment he would have recived had her lies been believed.....
Blame the prosecutors …..they placed charges before the proof had come in…….
Blame the judge who set the $500,000 bail amount despite the lack of credible evidence (credible evidence doesn't so easily fall apart since it has already been verified or established).....
March 25th, 2008 at 11:13 am
Wrong is wrong, violent or not.
Adultery is non-violent - is it less devastating? Stealing is non-violent - does it make it more ageeable? Lying against another is non-violent - so is it more inviting than a punch in the nose?
If woman were punished for giving false testimony against another, then mostly the truth would be told to police and judges.
Muslim countries are not feminized, so, if the punish a woman, they are positioned as unfair and brutal against woman by feminists in western countries.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:48 am
@BigB
We are on the same page here and I agree wholeheartedly with your extended thesis.
We have a semantic difference only. I view the arrest and incarceration as an act of violence. I hold the false accuser responsible for knowingly initiating this violence. I consider it's severity to be the equivalent of a forceful kidnapping and that the punishment should reflect this.
@Akhi
You wish to hold only the lawyers, and all of them at that, responsible.
Not good enough. There is one person alone who caused this to happen.
Other agents did what political correctness, not to mention any hope of job security, virtually compels them to do.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:59 am
Yes, a false accusers registry would be a GREAT idea!
I think she should serve the same sentence he would serve had he been guilty. That standard should apply to all false accusations or intentional acts that result in a wrongful conviction.
March 25th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
gwallan said: "We have a semantic difference only. I view the arrest and incarceration as an act of violence. I hold the false accuser responsible for knowingly initiating this violence. I consider it's severity to be the equivalent of a forceful kidnapping and that the punishment should reflect this."
I completely agree with this interpretation.
March 25th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
More on gwallan's interpretation: I consider any situation where women lie to the authorities in order to bring down the full force of the State on a man to be 'violence by proxy,' equivalent to hiring a Hit Man only without the requirement of payment for his services. It's my understanding that people are prosecuted for such things, so in addition to prosecution for filing a false police report, perjury, etc., I think women who do these things should be prosecuted in the same way as if they hired a hit man to assault another person.
March 25th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
"community of sexual-assault victims" is code for "women voters".
March 25th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
Doesn't it occur to these judges that, if false accusations receive only light punishment, that encourages false accusers?
March 25th, 2008 at 1:08 pm
Akhi: I do not believe that this case rises to the level of a 'credible accusation’, I never have. Nor do I think it unconstitutional to incarcerate people charged with a violent crime before the trial (assuming a reasonable bail is set) when the underlying proof is sufficient to merit such. In a real rape case there would be physical evidence and such to lend credibility to the charge. In this case, it seems to be a he said/she said; and I do not think that warrants pre-trail confinement. I digress, the specifics of this case are irrelevant to the point I’m making: false accusations are an abuse to the system and need to be severely punished to maintain the integrity of the system.
gwallan & Mr. Bad: the points you make are interesting, but I think there is enough room here to respectfully disagree on the classification of the crime, but also agree that the crime is very damaging. I think that we can all agree that not only is the crime damaging and a dirt trick played on the victim; but society at large suffers due to the loss of trust/faith in the justice system.
Later,
B
March 25th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
Mr. Bad, Violence by proxy is a perfect analogy. One man against the State. David versus Goliath. We know who won that one. It will take time for the West to emerge from the Valley of Elah we are in now but we will.
Almost as bad as State violence is the one sided public shaming that is also possible in these cases. Shield laws, re. chivalry, protect the false accuser here again. Even the language is insidious here. The false accuser will always be called the "victim" until the matter is settled. This carries with it the presumption of guilt. Trial by jury is the way to go in these cases. But many times people are shamed into pleas.
"The accusation of sin is the triumph of the death impulse" Northrop Frye
March 25th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
False rape accusation: so much to gain (attention, revenge, alibi, civil award, victim assistance, etc.), so little to lose (wrist slap, if anything).
Having considered the cost/benefit analysis, sure why not?!
Why as a society do we apparently seek to encourage false accusations of rape, and, indeed, women's general fear of and violence against men? What do we stand to gain from this?
March 25th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
People who enable these actions:
I think we need to look at the perpetrators that enable the crimes like the college professors: Is one year sentence with 357 days suspended a one year sentence? I think not - that was a room temperature I.Q. question. So, why is the judge doing his job wrong? Why is the Seattle Times printing a one year sentence? All above is obfuscation; it is the contamination of the truth and abomination of Justice, the Law. The Judge and Seattle Times need to be confronted on this.
News article should have read:
The news article should have read: Perpetrator, Clifton, sentenced to 8 days work program for making false accusations of rape, usings $xxx,xxx dollars of community resources and causing jailing of college professor of nine days together with grave harm to his life and career. The Judges name is:YYYYYYY.
Overall, the article was not total junk; at least they printed it and we all know many [papers] would not have. I never have had low standards, so I that is why I think the way I do. Contact the judge, get to the root cause of the problem - ask him what all this is about? Why the garbage?
The Police:
They jailed the professor on "she said"; the emails were not evidence, they were printed and given to police by the accuser; emails were not found on the server or the professors computer. The question begs: what level of due diligence do we hold the police to? Is it room temperature I.Q? Hey, they did release him in nine days, so this was not the worst.
Confront the enablers:
Blaming the perpetrator here is not effective; she did this because she thought she could get away with false imprisonment and she did. We need to focus on the enablers. Always!
Cheers to all who care for justice and our children,
So who agrees with me?? let me know. Am I too straight forward?
Steven Kemp
March 26th, 2008 at 8:23 am
Long live the witchhunt against men in the name of protecting women and children!
March 26th, 2008 at 9:25 am
from the article..........
'King County Deputy Prosecuting Attorney Shelby Smith said Clifton's actions will also "harm the community of sexual-assault victims," who will find their cases more difficult to pursue.
"Other victims will be treated with more scrutiny," she said.'
Well, maybe this is the only way we can begin to have more scrutiny. The boy who cried wolf kept doing it until the wolf showed up. IS this the only way the matriarchy is going to respond to false rape accusations and rape hysteria (the matriarchy certainly doesn't want to hear any solutions about rape hysteria from men's rights activists)......
BigB – “Akhi: I do not believe that this case rises to the level of a 'credible accusation’”
Nor do I, but that was what the article claimed and that is how the police acted; as if her accusation, without real evidence, was credible. That is the crux of what went wrong here (oh sure the crowds of people eager to punish didn’t help and they are to blame, too)....they locked the guy up WITHOUT credible evidence and later claimed it was - that should be prosecutorial misconduct).....that is a lie, an outright fabrication, a weak assed justification for how they railroaded this guy (and many other guys who will never make the papers sine they did have such an easy case to prove or the resources (read money) to get a good lawyer to handle the case right (I doubt he had a public pretender on his case for some reason)…..
"The King County Prosecutor's Office concedes a mistake was made in the original prosecution but said it was acting on the best information available at the time.
"In hindsight, what was presented to us was an allegation of a violent rape," said Ian Goodhew, deputy chief of staff. "That doesn't mean the investigation stopped."
Clifton was "an extremely articulate and credible victim," said Sgt. John Urquhart, Sheriff's Office spokesman. "There was no reason to suspect she wasn't telling the truth."
Uh, hello dumass (as in you dummass police, not anyone of you forum posters)……she was a liar and her proof was fabricated, so you locked the man up until you were made to look like the hateful fools that you are (hateful cuz you are so hateful towards men that you too readily assume that the woman was telling the truth and the man telling a lie)…..
We live in a police state where the police are eager to lock people up. In my current town, the paper reported that crime was down 35%, but the police are eager to hire more officers. The paper prints an article with the headline, “what if you called 911 and no one came” to scare people into wanting more police. The police union hands out lawn posters to anyone who wants one that says, “Support the Tallahassee Police” and I am tempted to write on each and every one I see, “Support the Tallahassee Police State”
Metalman – “BTW - I'm kind of sick of the whole "Fales rape allegations make it harder for the real victims" routine. While that might be true, it minimizes the plight of innocent men. It annoys me that people constantly need to focus on women as victims. It's like saying that there is no problem unless WOMEN are suffering somehow. "
No, matalman, it is not like that; it IS that. You don't have to be an unshaven lesbian radical to hold this opinion, that unless there is a woman suffering, there is no problem (this opinion I fostered on nearly every news channel and on nearly every tv program, not just Oprah and it is held by even the most mild feminists (men AND women), even many of the ones who don’t label themselves feminists on a very subconscious level don’t give a rat’s arse about men (they might care about their own man for as long as they are with him, but they do not value men as a group, they have been taught again and again that MOST men are bad and only a select few men are good – are you a ‘nice’ guy or are you one of them, the larger group, we as a society, have been taught to despise so readily, so immediately and so thoroughly); they only care about what happens to women – men are disposable, interchangeable parts, to be upgraded, traded, and readily discarded without a second thought. That is why the vast majority of breakups of marriages and girlfriends occur when the women ends it (women are taught to find men lacking and to find upgraded models as often as they like-they certainly are not taught to value their man). Dr Laura was practically attacked for suggesting that women value their men and hold on to em. Men suffering doesn’t bother the average feminist one iota, not one scintilla; they are focused on the needs, wants, desires, etc of women to the total EXCLUSION of all else (except children, they will walk all over men to do anything for children). I don’t like it, I don’t agree with it, but I see it all the time and it makes me sick.
That is why I say things like, "men are bad and real men are real bad".....That is why I have a plaque in my shop that reminds me in twenty different ways that men's complaints, concerns, issues, etc will NOT be taken seriously in this matriarchal society. Men can and do suffer and most women (and most men) not only do not care, they seem to enjoy it or think it a good thing, like the men who are alive today are supposed to suffer for the supposed sins of our forebears (we are no longer taught to even see the good things our forebears did). No, it does not make me happy. It took me quite a long time to wake up to the suffering of men (having been raised by lesbian feminists) and it took me too long to wake up to the severity of the present witch hunt primarily against men in the realm of sexuality.
"Clifton's attorney, Kelly Faoro, said her client has 'extremely deep remorse' for the false statements and realizes that "none of this makes it any better" for the professor."
Yup, she felt real bad that she got caught in a lie.....and if her lie didnt get found out, she would have happily forgot the whole thing and he would have been labeled a sex offender for life as well as the years of imprisonment, character defamation, etc......Don't suggest for a second that I do not feel for him.....I have been in his shoes myself having been falsely accused of a nasty crime I did commit, was forced to cop a plea and on and on and on .....I have never earned half as much as I used to and I have endured the continued character assassination to this day. My only consolation is that I am not alone, that I am not the only man alive who has been railroaded and demonized (steamrolled by the criminal injustice system that assumed you are guilty until proven innocent and probably guilty even if you were proven innocent and most especially assumes wrongly that the criminal injustice system makes no mistakes)…..
We live today, every day as one long Law & Order & CSI marathon in which the police, prosecutors, defense attorneys, and judges are all represented as doing their job as they are supposed to, but when it is your turn to be trashed by the system, you might just find out that these folks are actually fallible humans who often have their careers and self interests a little ahead of the hype promoted on the tv. The history of criminal justice in this country and throughout the world is rife with abuse, but the Law & Order & CSI marathons that occur every day seem to drill into our head anything but that reality.
Be afraid, be very afraid and buy whatever the tv ad tells ya to. And support the police state….
When I lived in LA, nearly every nightly newscast began with a murder investigation or trial or some sensational despicable act. And if they couldn’t find one of the twenty million people in socal willing to perform one of these murders so they could report it, they would go as far as the Midwest or the east coast to find a ghastly murder so they could report one nearly every day.
We are taught to be afraid so much it is disgusting cuz most of us lives lives so much safer than they ever have bee in all of human history and yet with that fear we will promote the police state and the prison industrial complex…..I do not know who will pay the taxes if they lock up the thirty million Americans who smoke Marijuana……And I do not know who will pay to incarcerate and prosecute every man who had sex with a woman who decided afterward it might not have been a good idea (imagine if I bought a car and the next day I wondered if it was a good idea and could have the dealer arrested for stealing my money cuz I changed my mind)…….or imagine that if i bought a car while i had been drinking and i could have the dealer/salesperson arrested for stealing my money cuz i chose to drink while buying a car......welcome to the police state and greet big brother.....he loves us all and trusts none of us to know what is good for us
March 26th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
Clifton was "an extremely articulate and credible victim," said Sgt. John Urquhart, Sheriff's Office spokesman. "There was no reason to suspect she wasn't telling the truth."
Reason to suspect she was telling the truth huh? There's a process of gathering evidence and information to find if there is reason to suspect if she was telling the truth. Yeah I think they call it INVESTIGATION!.
This case is a classic example of shoot first ask questions later. They tossed his butt in jail on her words alone. I thought the phrase was, "innocent until proven guilty". It looks like Jay-Z wasn't too far off the mark with is song, "Guilty Until Proven Innocent".
March 26th, 2008 at 11:55 pm
Gwallan said: "I view the arrest and incarceration as an act of violence. I hold the false accuser responsible for knowingly initiating this violence. I consider it's severity to be the equivalent of a forceful kidnapping and that the punishment should reflect this."
In this form kidnapping where the kidnapper wears a badge - the victim doesn't have the opportunity or right of fight or flight.
March 27th, 2008 at 12:21 am
"Other victims will be treated with more scrutiny," she said.'
So what! - If it is the truth they desire, scrutiny doesn't prevent that, does it?
A victim of robbery (assault and theft) has to deal with this scrutiny (examination and cross-examination) on the stand. Even the most blatantly guilty person has the 'right to face the accuser'. Just not with this particular crime.
March 27th, 2008 at 8:20 am
in Many cases, you no longer have the right to face your accuser.......rape shield laws shred the constitution in many ways
Just take the bill of rights and throw it out the window if you are accused of a sex crime......
April 12th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
Someone said that being falsely accused is just as bad as rape. Coming from a woman that has been through both I disagree. Being falsely accused is far worse than being raped. If you are raped only those you choose to tell know about it and you can keep it quiet if you want to. When you are falsely accused it becomes public knowledge and there is a far greater stigmastism to being and offender than a victim.
We do need to make some stiffer penalties for make false allegations of any kind of abuse not just rape. I understand the frustration here. If sex offenders have to register then False accusers should too. This should spread out to child abuse cases as well. Look at how many teachers both male and female are being accused everyday. Or even parents who get mad that their teenage daughter has had sex and have the boyfriend charged because they are under the legal age in that state. Many teenage boys could soon be having their lives ruined because of this. I say that because in the state I live in if you are found guilty of having sex with an under age individual you have to register for life even if you are 15 at the time the so called crime took place.