New Column: Media Reaction to New Housework Study Minimizes Men’s Work, Sacrifice for Their Families
April 4th, 2008 by Glenn Sacks, MA for Fathers & Families"CNN says 'Report: Men still not pulling weight on chores.' Major newspaper headlines include: 'Home equity? Men are doing more chores, but women still do most,' 'Men still slack off, but not as much,' and 'Men do more housework, but not yet a fair share.' Several hundred newspapers and media outlets are covering a new Council on Contemporary Families report on men and housework. The message is clear--yes, men have improved a little, but they still don’t do enough, and women are still getting a raw deal.
"This is a terribly unfair distortion..."
My new co-authored column, Media Reaction to New Housework Study Minimizes Men’s Work, Sacrifice for Their Families (Tucson Citizen, 4/1/08), criticizes the misleading reporting of a new study on men’s housework and child care. The original Associated Press article is Men still not pulling weight on chores (CNN, 3/6/06).
To write a Letter to the Editor of the Tucson Citizen concerning Father knows rest? 2 men beg to differ (4/1/08), write to letters@tucsoncitizen.com.
The column, co-authored with family law attorney Jeffery M. Leving, is below.
Media Reaction to New Housework Study Minimizes Men’s Work, Sacrifice for Their Families
By Jeffery M. Leving and Glenn Sacks
CNN says “Report: Men still not pulling weight on chores.” Major newspaper headlines include: “Home equity? Men are doing more chores, but women still do most,” “Men still slack off, but not as much,” and “Men do more housework, but not yet a fair share.” Several hundred newspapers and media outlets are covering a new Council on Contemporary Families report on men and housework. The message is clear--yes, men have improved a little, but they still don’t do enough, and women are still getting a raw deal.
This is a terribly unfair distortion because it disregards the fact that men are usually their families’ primary breadwinners, and often make great sacrifices in that role. Studies which account for the total amount of work that husbands and wives contribute to their households--including housework, child care, and employment--confirm that men contribute at least as much to their families as women do.
According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics’ 2004 Time Use Survey, men spend one and a half times as many hours working as women do, and full-time employed men still work significantly more hours than full-time employed women. Census data shows that a quarter of married women with children under 18 do not hold a job outside the home, and less than half work full time.
A 2002 University of Michigan Institute for Social Research survey found that women do 11 more hours of housework a week than men but men work 14 hours a week more than women. According to the BLS, men’s total time at leisure, sleeping, doing personal care activities, or socializing is a statistically meaningless 1% higher than women’s. The Families and Work Institute in New York City found that fathers now provide three-fourths as much child care as mothers do—50% more than 30 years ago.
Yet even these studies understate men’s contributions because they only count the hours devoted to a task without measuring the physical strain and/or danger associated with it. A man doing eight hours of dangerous construction work in the 95-degree heat is credited with no more "work" than a woman who works in an air-conditioned office. A man driving a truck, taxi or heavy equipment under hazardous conditions is equated with a woman caring for her children or making dinner in the comfort and safety of her own home.
According to the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, more than three million workers a year are treated in hospital emergency rooms for occupational injuries—the vast majority of them suffered by men. Nearly 100,000 American workers have died from job-related injuries over the past decade and a half, 95% of them men. Of the 25 most dangerous jobs listed by the U.S. Department of Labor, all of them are between 90 percent and 100 percent male. According to the International Labor Organization, 100,000 Americans die of work-related diseases every year, again overwhelmingly male.
It is true that work outside the home is often more interesting than work done in the home. Yet it is also true that work done in the home—particularly time spent with one’s children when they are young—is often more satisfying than wage work.
The Associated Press does concede that “The average dad has gradually been getting better about picking himself up off the sofa and pitching in.” Yet from the article’s tone and accompanying headlines one might well miss its central topic--the Council on Contemporary Families’ research found that the amount of housework men do has doubled and the childcare fathers provide has tripled over the past four decades. Moreover, men have accomplished this in an era where the average workweek has significantly expanded.
The report also notes the strong linkage between the amount of hours a woman spends on the job and the amount of childcare and housework her husband does.
Nevertheless, what men do is still not enough. Carol Evans, founder and CEO of Working Mother magazine, told the AP, “[Women] haven't quite gotten to equality in any sense that a woman would say, 'Wow, that's equal.’” Men work the longest hours at the most dangerous and demanding jobs, while still managing to contribute significantly at home. How exactly is this unfair to women?
This column first appeared in the Tucson Citizen (4/1/08).
Jeffery M. Leving is one of America's most prominent family law attorneys and the author of the book Divorce Wars. His website is www.dadsrights.com.
Glenn Sacks’ columns on men's and fathers' issues have appeared in dozens of the largest newspapers in the United States. www.GlennSacks.com
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April 4th, 2008 at 10:02 am
Just a general question about what is considered "housework". I've noticed that (at least where I live) it is almost always men who do the yard mowing, bush trimming, car washing, snow shoveling, ice scraping, leaf raking, and gutter cleaning (plus numerous other examples). So, are such things as these considered part of the "housework"?
April 4th, 2008 at 10:07 am
Glenn, one of your posters here said it very eloquently. Some of these women have always had more, have not received more, and still want more [paraphrased] and they will not stop while they still can "get" and they will never have enough as demonstrated by this article
b
April 4th, 2008 at 10:13 am
If the media "lace curtain effect" can pump enough women as victim agit-prop, They believe they can drown out any and all apathy towards the atrocities that are taking place for men/fathers /boys..
Hey it's working!!
April 4th, 2008 at 10:14 am
Edit...Apathy, should be... sympathy
April 4th, 2008 at 10:14 am
One thought that I had about the fiascos over housework is in regards to parenting. I am a bit young to be a parent myself, but I do notice that a few of my aunts and uncles give my younger cousins various chores appropriate for their age. It makes house cleaning quicker for everyone, and teaches them some responsibility.
In this day and age, I do not think this is the norm in households. Everywhere I go I seem to meet more and more incredibly spoiled children who simply cannot pick up after themselves. Could this have any sort of affect?
April 4th, 2008 at 10:22 am
slwerner Says:
April 4th, 2008 at 10:02 am
Just a general question about what is considered "housework". I've noticed that (at least where I live) it is almost always men who do the yard mowing, bush trimming, car washing, snow shoveling, ice scraping, leaf raking, and gutter cleaning (plus numerous other examples). So, are such things as these considered part of the "housework"?
*Unclogging the toilets,taking out the trash, carcass disposal when the family pet dies, killing moles and gophers in the yard. Making sure the oil is changed. Family car maintenance. Accompanying her to certain outings you detest ( yes this is a chore). fertilizing the lawn. Killing weeds in the lawn. Taking down wasp and hornets nest. Killing ants, spiders and other pests aka mice etc.. Cleaning the garage. Washing the cars. Changing oil in the mower. Moving the heavy furniture where she wants it. Just to name a few more.
April 4th, 2008 at 10:30 am
April 4th, 2008 at 10:32 am
More of the same... anti-father, anti-male propaganda based on very convenient criteria that accounts for very little in the ways of a family's daily life.
Too bad.
April 4th, 2008 at 10:39 am
David adds to the list - "Just to name a few more."
David,
Every time I've read an item in regard to this "housework" issue, it has seemed to focus on interior household cleaning and child care. I cannot recall outdoor chores ever being mentioned (I readily admit I haven't seen every single article). Perhaps someone will set me straight on this?
Now, the reason I ask is that my wife often jests that my yard work and car care are "hobbies", which would have them considered as leisure time. She's not serious about this view, she's just noting that I seem to enjoy "my" chores more than she does hers.
Conversely, she loves to cook, but only has time to really enjoy it on weekends. Still, on more than one occasion where she's gone all-out thoroughly enjoying herself to make a spectacular meal - not to mention a big mess in the kitchen - she say, "I did the cooking, you get to clean up".
I guess I should take the tact of saying, "I fed the dog, you clean up the poop in the yard".
So, does anyone else know if outdoor chores are considered housework or leisure time for men.
April 4th, 2008 at 10:44 am
Yard work was always considered chores in my house. With three sons in the house we did plenty of them, but my mom always joined in with raking leaves, shoveling the deck and front porch, and other things. We would also always pitch in as a family in the kitchen work, which goes by very quickly with five people.
Strange though, that while I never enjoyed mowing the grass, I always did take pride in a well kept lawn.
April 4th, 2008 at 10:46 am
The "scientific study" they use to get these stats is merely just aksing women their opinions. Ask anybody where you work who does the most work and they will invariably say themselves.
April 4th, 2008 at 10:47 am
slwerner,
Sort of funny and sort of sad at the same time that the things we do are either not considered or considered as "hobbies" by some women. This would lead to a disparity.
I don' t know if outdoor chores are considered housework or leisure.
April 4th, 2008 at 10:48 am
Most guys I talk to are expecteed to do "equal housework" yet they still have "man jobs". Taking out the trash, fixing things, walking the dog, mnowign the grass. The women simply shoot down any discussion of equity by saying calling anything a women's job is sexist.
April 4th, 2008 at 11:05 am
slwerner says,
"she's just noting that I seem to enjoy "my" chores more than she does hers."
Slwerner, I think you may have just hit on a wonderful point here. While women tend to smile a lot in public and when you are first dating, I think men are overall happier beings than women.
Ironically, with all the advantages that women seem to have with feminism, they seem to be more unhappy than ever.
April 4th, 2008 at 11:26 am
World to end tomorrow! Women disproprotionately affected!
It sounds like one of those stories. I would instead interpret these reports to mean that women still overwhelmingly favor men's breadwinning capacity over housekeeping and this is their personal choice. On this forum, when men point out that women don't pay their way on dates, the response from women is "Don't date those women." (Nevermind that nearly all women are like this.) However, there are plenty of men willing and able to do household chores in leau being a breadwinner.
I remember growing up that I was expected to do a whole host of chores including outside work (mostly assigned to the boys) but also sometimes having to do the inside work as well including vacuuming. NONE of these skills were appreciated by most women I met when they evaluated me as a mate.
Carol Evans, the founder of Working Women magazine, should pause and reflect that millions of working women are unable to find a husband AT ALL to either contribute financially or clean up around the house. Feminists sometimes had the gall to argue that men created more work (due to them being pigs) than they contributed in the form of housecleaning, but even if that was the case it still was a financial windfall for most women.
I would expect that as time goes by, and breadwinners willing to marry such women become more and more scarce, these men will become more demanding.
April 4th, 2008 at 11:30 am
Housework. It truly isn't very much like "work" in my opinion. I thought it was when I heard my mother complain constantly, granted she did actually cook, not just microwave or instant meal everything. I think that is probably why I prefer cooking real food over frozen meals. Then while I was married, the way the wife talked about housework the fulltime military and 2 part time jobs I worked to bring in enough to live on was easy in comparison. After I got divorced and lived alone I found out that in a few hours a week I could do everything myself...while watching TV. I never once broke a sweat or even breathed heavy for that matter. I am sorry, but this "housework" thing is a joke, or a scam.
April 4th, 2008 at 11:41 am
Men picking up a disproportionate share of checks at restaurants.
Men doing a disproportionate share of lawn mowing, home improvemet priojects, falling off roofs or ladders when cleaning gutters, and winding up paralyzed.
Men doing a disproportionate percentage of the dying by age 80.
Yep.
Men are obviously exploiting women at every turn.
Women should only have to exert themselves at their plush heath clubs and spas. Women cleaning their own homes is an outrage I tell ya.
Well, they better get used to it because increasingly, men want neither to marry them nor reside with them.
I predict that women's time spent cleaning their lonely homes is going to keep rising steadily - in direct proportion to the rapidly falling appeal of women in the eyes of men.
April 4th, 2008 at 11:42 am
You know, I have no idea how accurate these studies are, how they are conducted or anything else. I have a couple of philosphical problems with all of it. First, whose business is to tell a couple how they should divide up household chores? Every few months the national news outlets report on one of these stories and then certain Web sites parrot it and suggest such studies articulate assymetrical power in male-female relationships which underscore female subjugation. It seems to me that in any relationship such imbalance is correctable by having the woman tell the man he needs to do more -- if that's her desire. The man may not want to, and they will have to figure out how to deal with that.
While I can't attack the actual studies -- maybe they are completely scientific, I don't know -- I do have some general observations. I suspect women are socialized to take care of the house, and to want to be the primary parent (as most fathers learn in a custody battle). If you consider yourself the primary parent, you will keep the house neat for the children's sake. Men don't notice clutter nearly as much as women and don't see as much need to clean up (and no, ladies, that's NOT because the woman does it for them -- have you ever been to a typical college dude'd dorm room? We don't care about that stuff nearly as much as you do.)
April 4th, 2008 at 11:50 am
The story behind the story is a need to continue to portray the most privileged class in history (modern women) as "victims" of some kind of evil male patriarchy.
Notice the piece never defines what gender "equality" means in any sensible way.
I love that the article mentions that when men do more housework, they could get more sex. (Good doggie, now here's your treat...)
Isn't that a perverse kind of prostitution? (Though in that scenario I'm not sure who is the ho'...)
Even digging deeper, why has modern coupledom become such a ridiculous affair?
Everything about being in a relationship has become politicized, a contest, a zero-sum game where you have to identify the winners and losers.
And, of course we all know, marriage is "hard work."
I don't want more hard work after a day of hard work!
What's the answer?
April 4th, 2008 at 11:56 am
I think mens contributions are so worthless that we should do away with male-invented items such as dishwashers, washers and dryers, vacuum cleaners. Hmm... maybe cut electrical power to the house and see who's happier.
April 4th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
---“A man doing eight hours of dangerous construction work in the 95-degree heat is credited with no more "work" than a woman who works in an air-conditioned office. A man driving a truck, taxi or heavy equipment under hazardous conditions is equated with a woman caring for her children or making dinner in the comfort and safety of her own home.”
It can also be said that a man who storms the beaches of Normandy has paid a higher price to protect our freedom than a woman working in a factory making a fantastic wage and enjoying all the comfort and security of home.
It can also be said that a man kicking in doors, fighting in frontline combat positions, is paying a higher price than some woman working in the “green zone”.
Yet … the ever nonsensical feminist would have us believe that their sacrifices are equally important.
How can that be?
There have been over 4,000 deaths in Iraq and only 100 are women. That’s 2% of the dead.
How is that equal?
Why is it that all they want to do is complain about housework?
Could it be to draw attention away from the more glaring issues?
People who support that kind of obscene prejudice are a disgrace.
April 4th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
Bingo! You nailed it.
Women want men to share in women's traditional housework, but have no desire to share the responsibilities men face.
Glenn, have you seen the report? Did the report consider both work and housework and find men to do more overall (as numerous reports in the past over many years have shown), but the newspapers focused on only the housework aspect of it?
If that's the case, please tell me. I'm sick of this bullcrap and I think it's time someone sued the papers for class action libel.
April 4th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
slerner wrote: Now, the reason I ask is that my wife often jests that my yard work and car care are "hobbies", which would have them considered as leisure time. She's not serious about this view, she's just noting that I seem to enjoy "my" chores more than she does hers.
That's precisely the serious thinking of many women. From my own experience, anything that I did for the family which I "enjoyed" was not a chore and didn't count. I'm deadly serious.
If it was doing car maintenance, lawn & garden, rolling up and down the entire street with the snowblower, selling items on eBay as a part-time job to help make ends-meet, e.g. - they "didn't count" because I enjoyed them.
It must be nice to live life in such a selfish reality.
April 4th, 2008 at 12:23 pm
I have also noticed that much of the housework that women perform tends to be somewhat unecessary and it done to meet her satisfaction not his or the rest of the families. Men rarely fuss as much as women. Perhaps vacuuming once every two weeks is good enough but she insists on every week and then claims that he is a pig and whines about it expecting him to make up for it another way. This is made worse when the woman considers the home to be her turf. It does not matter if his office is a mess just as long as he brings in the bacon.
April 4th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
AP you forgot to add while they drive there in their SUV and take the escalator and elevator to the floor of their choice
April 4th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
This is standard-issue MSM misandry. When will we ever see articles on the scandal of women failing to support their families, of failing to pay the rent or put food on the table to the extent men do, of failing to pull their weight? Funny how you never, never see those articles even though the facts to support them are there for all to see. Misandry, pure and simple.
April 4th, 2008 at 12:39 pm
I too have noticed a disparity, or outright ignoring of "men's" jobs around the house. Anytime I bring it up with other women (typically complaining about how their husbands aren't doing as much), I'm either ignored or subjected to a nice supply of shaming language.
No one wants to talk seriously about this, or there's odd rationalizing of the subject: i.e. men "enjoy" it, therefore it doesn't count.
My response..."yea right..."-_-
There is also no comparision in terms of time taken or difficulty of the tasks. Danger associated is also minimized or ignored in terms of "male" tasks. While on "female" tasks, the danger is emphasized or exaggerated ("stress").
April 4th, 2008 at 12:40 pm
I've said this before..
the person who wins the contest is the one who defines the terms of the argument. (And that always includes what can be said, and what cannot....) Invisible censorship.
(Homage to Sun Tzu -- The Art of War.)
Feminists have been amazingly, irrationally successful at defining gender relations as "oppression of women."
Victim POWER!
Everything is theory.
Men may need to create some new ones, based on self-interest?
What do you gentlemen (dangerous assumption) - and the always delightful harem voices -- propose?
To put the question more bluntly - where do we go from here?
April 4th, 2008 at 12:43 pm
Actually, I notice clutter and it bothers me. My wife is a terrible housekeeper and this is one of the items that cause our arguments. If I do it and the many other things that she does not I really do not need her around, because the companionship and intimate relations is not worth it if that is all there is to the relationship. We both have to do our part and she is not living up to her end of the bargain. There is more but not fair to talk about it without her here, she would let me but she is not here.
b
April 4th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
Equally important nothing. They will always insist that women are suffering more than men because the women victims are not mentioned as often, the patriarchy is keeping them out of those high paying positions, etc... Check this out:
Kevin Merck:
It can also be said that a man who storms the beaches of Normandy has paid a higher price to protect our freedom than a woman working in a factory making a fantastic wage and enjoying all the comfort and security of home.
The only reason that happened is because women were kept out of combat positions.
It can also be said that a man kicking in doors, fighting in frontline combat positions, is paying a higher price than some woman working in the “green zone”.
The only reason that is happening is because women are still being kept out of combat position for the most part and few that do are haunted by the possibility of being sexually assaulted.
And in the event that either of those arguments fail they will always drag out the, "Most of the innocent people that killed are women and children," card.
slerner and Mister-M if the women in you lives have classified your chores as hobbied stop partaking in those hobbies and do some "real housework" (i.e. do her chores for her) and see what happens when the cars aren't maintained, insects overrun the house, and the grass is tall enough for resistance fighters to hide out in.
April 4th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
"Yet even these studies understate men’s contributions because they only count the hours devoted to a task without measuring the physical strain and/or danger associated with it. "
Growing up we lived on a farm. My mother was one of the hardest working women I know, but even she left certain jobs for the strong hands of my father. Most of these women complaining about work, don't have a clue what men's hard physical work, done day after day, is like.
I think men doing these dangerous jobs should just do housework, then tell big mouthed, gender feminists to go do the really hard, dirty, and dangerous work of men.
http://tinyurl.com/3jtnsq
April 4th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
Just so we are clear here folks this is not just feminists doing this. This is something that both feminist and non-feminist women do. And don't you all find it kind of...I don't know....sexist and hypocritical that they complain about cooking, cleaning, etc...being call "woman's work" but have no problems writing off the chores that men do as "hobbies"?
April 4th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
I can get more housework done during the commercial breaks of an NFL football game than my wife (and appently many wives, since other men have expressed similar observations) seems to be able to get done all week. More stupid agenda-driven advocacy "research". The best solution for a man is to not live with a woman. The housework they endlesslly complain about is trivial- that's one reason they have to complain about it so much. They have to puff it up to make it seem important to themselves. Don't get married. Don't move in with a woman. Don't commit to monogamy. Enjoy your freedom (and peace and quiet).
April 4th, 2008 at 1:29 pm
Don't forget, women also define when the housework is "done." Most men are perfectly happy to live in a reasonably clean space. Many women refuse to live in anything other than a spotless, dirtless biodome. Thus causing themselves even more work than is actually necessary.
April 4th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
Dudes and dudettes, heinous typo, must have cause quite the conundrum in the richeous reading of my verbage, stupendous apologies for any brain freezes, folks. Be excellent to each other!
Bernie Misiura Says:
April 4th, 2008 at 10:07 am
Glenn, one of your posters here said it very eloquently. Some of these women have always had more, have
notnow received more, and still want more [paraphrased] and they will not stop while they still can "get" and they will never have enough as demonstrated by this articleb
April 4th, 2008 at 2:04 pm
Ahh, my wife ;) As I've told her, you can clean the house to whatever standard you want. I'll clean it to the standard I want. Since I do the majority of the house work most of the time (she works hellish hours), most of the time the house is at my standard. When she gets the time, she cleans it to hers. She's wise enough to not complain about it between her periods of having time to clean. Come to think of it tho, I really do need to vacuum tonight.
Fortunately it is only most women who do this. My wife is again an exception. Back when she wasn't so overworked, she recognized my "male chores" that I took the time to do, even if I enjoyed them. She did more of the indoor housework, I did virtually all of the outdoor housework. She appreciates that I bust my ass doing things she doesn't want to do (mowing) and that I work hard doing things I enjoy which she doesn't have the skill to do (carpentry).
Actually, thinking of that, that's probably how we came to such an equitable deal. We discussed who would have what chores, diving them not only by effort but by level of aversion (she does most of the litter box cleaning, a chore I detest, in return I do a bit more of the laundry). By talking it out, we both feel we are getting the "better deal" with housework rather than both feeling we have the worse deal. That's why when either of us need help (she's studying for a test or I'm busy making something for the house) there's no resentment in helping out.
April 4th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
"Most men are perfectly happy to live in a reasonably clean space. Many women refuse to live in anything other than a spotless, dirtless biodome. Thus causing themselves even more work than is actually necessary."
If men did their occupations as inefficiently as most women do their housework, he'd be fired for sand bagging, and/or trying to do a better job than is necessary to attain a satisfactory result. Corporations would go broke, doing, then redoing a task, before it's necessary.
Time/motion studies are never offered in evidence to show all the wasted time and motion that housewives routinely engage in, in these hogwash studies about women doing unfair amounts of housework. Time/motion studies would show the incompetence of the average housewife in the management of her housework, and the unnecessary time and motion she expends, in my opinion.
Oh, but the standards of housework, must be defined by women - - - hogwash.
April 4th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
Danny wrote: slerner and Mister-M if the women in you lives have classified your chores as hobbied stop partaking in those hobbies and do some "real housework" (i.e. do her chores for her) and see what happens when the cars aren't maintained, insects overrun the house, and the grass is tall enough for resistance fighters to hide out in.
I did that. Did you think that by doing so, I wouldn't "be in trouble?" LOL!
Not only that, when I did all my chores and cooked, assisted with cleaning, did 90% of the laundry, at least equal stuff regarding the children (when I wasn't working)... it still "wasn't enough."
My problem? I married her. Oh, well.
April 4th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
These studies are always twisted and it shows that the Journalists working for these media outlets are brain dead.
One minute they are blowing their trumpets about the amount of women that have moved on and are now single. Therefore using current stats of 50% marriage failure there can only be 50% of the homes with men and women in them.
That leaves :
25% Households Men
25% Households Women
50% households with men and women
So going with the idiocracy its more of the same … encouraging Gender wars in the remaining 50% of the households with men and women.
I guess the Fems want the divorce rate to at least 75% … but what they are not telling their sheep ( women) is that when they get divorced they have 100% of the chores …. Misery enjoys company.
But then they will be encouraged to get spread the misery by hiring a maid and pay for it from the alimony or child support checks .. paid by you know who!
April 4th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
MM I did that too now things are worse than ever. Somtimes I cannot find my stuff and I do NOT want to talk about the kids rooms! ) >-:
April 4th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
It is to laugh. The law of unintended consequences WILL prevail.
Is this type of MSM / Female haranguing going to get men to don their french maid outfits? Hardly. As men increasingly realize that they just don't have to put up with this sh!t (just look at the demographic trends), women will increasingly be liberated enough to do 100% of the household / yard chores, and make 100% of the household income -- living all by themselves. The dudes will swing by, enjoy what both sexes can't do without (God's little joke on humanity), and leave. Men have proved quite capable of earning a living, and equally capable of keeping a household in good order -- good enough for them, at least. Sounds PERFECTLY EQUAL to me. The gals should just LOVE it, right?
Something tells me that "being a good homemaker" and "not being a nag" might end up creeping back onto the list of what women who would like a hard-working, high-achieving man in their home are willing to offer in exchange for that privilege. There are still a few women who want that, aren't there?
April 4th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
I wonder if the figure 6487 would impress them... as in 6,487 tons of DOT Class 1.1D explosives (4 x the manifested total of HE on the wharf at Port Chicago when it went high order) under my happy white hat at Kilo wharf (US Navy ammunition loading wharf),which DEFINATELY constitutes hazardous work (did I mention 12 on/12 off shifts for up to 10 days during ordnance handling, and up to 20 hour days (for 31 days straight at one point) preparing for facility inspections consitutes strenuous work schedules.
Anyone want to guess how big a hole in the ground that 6,487 tons of 1.1D would have made if it detonated high order?
Think miles in diameter.
I'm the Mr Mom now, I do the houseowrk, dishes, laundry, vacuuming and tend the pets.
I also pay the mortgage.
It's the easiest job I've ever had.
G_R
April 4th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
Realizing that the way my family operated is not necessarily the norm, but indicitive of what happens in the circle of friends that I have, I find this study to be wholly prejudicial and one-sided. My ex-wife saw an episode of Oprah in which some feminist was extolling the virtue of stay at home moms (not parents or dads, just moms) and the fact that their work load was actually the equivilent of 2 full time jobs. That's all my ex needed to hear to justify bemoaning almost daily the amount of work she does during the day and having me take over almost completely taking over the household upon my return home from my 2 jobs. While I delighted in taking over the parenting of my two daughters every day when I got home, I had to cut our play time short as it was up to me to prepare dinner every night. It was also up to me to clean what hadn't been done during the day as well as taking care of the girls after supper. As I worked my tail off every day for my family, I worked my tail off when I got home as well. I see this more often than not with men and their families which is why I think the conclusions are drawn before the studies even begin.
April 4th, 2008 at 5:20 pm
Taking care of my children is never a chore for me.
THAT is my male privelege.
April 4th, 2008 at 5:44 pm
Listening to women complain should also be counted as work done by men. It should be the highest paying job next to combat.
April 4th, 2008 at 6:04 pm
Rik Little,
Oh but didn't you know??? It's a womans responsibility in life to point out a mans failings (repeatedly of course) in detail, which he must humbly entertain her orations contritely (lest he accused of ignoring her)...
G_R
April 4th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
Jay R:
"...women will increasingly be liberated enough to do 100% of the household / yard chores, and make 100% of the household income -- living all by themselves. The dudes will swing by, enjoy what both sexes can't do without (God's little joke on humanity), and leave. Men have proved quite capable of earning a living, and equally capable of keeping a household in good order -- good enough for them, at least. Sounds PERFECTLY EQUAL to me.
Nice post. One can only hope.
Realizing that the way my family operated is not necessarily the norm, but indicitive of what happens in the circle of friends that I have, I find this study to be wholly prejudicial and one-sided. My ex-wife saw an episode of Oprah in which some feminist was extolling the virtue of stay at home moms (not parents or dads, just moms) and the fact that their work load was actually the equivilent of 2 full time jobs. That's all my ex needed to hear to justify bemoaning almost daily the amount of work she does during the day and having me take over almost completely taking over the household upon my return home from my 2 jobs.
While I delighted in taking over the parenting of my two daughters every day when I got home, I had to cut our play time short as it was up to me to prepare dinner every night. It was also up to me to clean what hadn't been done during the day as well as taking care of the girls after supper. As I worked my tail off every day for my family, I worked my tail off when I got home as well. I see this more often than not with men and their families which is why I think the conclusions are drawn before the studies even begin.
This sounds exactly like the situation I'm in. The only difference is that my girlfriend didn't need to find an excuse like a feminist on daytime tv to stay at home all day not doing house work. She just arbitrarly decided to do it. And when ever I call her on it she says: "My job is to stay at home and take care of your son. I'm not you're mom or your wife so clean up yourself."
Man I can wait until I graduate in a few months and get a real job. Then I can actually afford a decent lawyer; dump her ass; and have a decent chance of getting joint custody of my son.
April 4th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
I dont have problem with the idea that if theyre both doing 40-50 outside the house the house stuff should be shared equally, but theres a but... My problem with this kind of article- the CNN one- is that it will be used by lazy females who work only part time outside the house or who dont work at all outside the house to coerce their partners into the feminist ideal which is that a man who works 40-50 hours outside the home should then come home and help his Peg Bundy clone with her 20-30 inside the home. The way things are that's how many women will use this.
Its all pretty simple- in any situation where he does more work outside the home she should do more work inside the house- and vice versa. And any man or woman who doesn't like that deal can simply stay un-married.
I also notice that they seem to be trying to get men to do more housework by dangling sex in front of their noses ."Hmmm, sex with a feminist virago who wants me to be not only her wage-slave but also her maid? Well, why dont i just go punch myself in the groin instead?" We are all about sex, apparently.
I notice also that there is now something called "invisible housework". The examples cited in this article seem fair, but needless to say, hordes of Pegs will include as "invisble housework" the time they spend sitting on their butts, watching the Young and the Restless, while the microwave does the cooking for them.
April 4th, 2008 at 10:06 pm
The girls on Glenn's site have been rather silent about this topic of the equality of domesticity and its maintenance.
That seems odd.
I thought that was their principal concern?
April 5th, 2008 at 1:11 am
Professional couples can afford to hire help. The problem is if a family is living on one income then there is not the money to hire the help.
April 5th, 2008 at 4:56 am
OK, I can't take anymore: Roy hits the nil on the head, and biggups to him for citing Sun Tzu's immortal work The Art of War (btw, did you notice something about the author? Yup, you guessed it, he's a man): if you can determine the parameters of the argument, you win. The same holds true in good basketball: you want to force your opponent to change his shot. If you do, chances are high, that you'll win.
And again, here's where I put the blame squarely on MEN for not speaking up for themselves.
OK, here's the deal for me: I'm up between 3 and 4AM, out the door by 5AM, and often am not home until 9 or 10PM at night. That's five days a week y'all, and by the time I do get home, the last thing on my mind is doing chores of ANY kind. I gave at the office.
So, for me, the deal is simple: I'm a strong advocate for division of labor: I'll get the money, you (the missus) will handle things on the homefront. You won't hear me complain about the work I do at work...so, who shouldn't complain about the work they do at home?
And if she still wants to come w/that dumb stuff, OK, here's what we'll do: we'll trade-she gets to get up at 3AM, work from 6.30AM til about 8.30PM, two shifts, in the cold and wet place (I work in the food service industry), exposed to all kinds of danger (a man died on the job about a week before I started), and see how she likes it, let alone hacks it. It'd be a shock if she lasts a week, let alone years, like me. And she can be rest assured I won't say a word about doing the housework. Let's see how many intrepid feminists sign on for that deal. Pardon me while I breakout the iron lung.
Polish Knight hits the nail on the head: its the WOMEN who don't want Mr. Mom. I've said again and again, when the rubber hits the road, women want their men out earning a buck, not holding a duster. My other half is very clear on this point, which is why she has NEVER complained about such stupid, silly stuff.
As I've said before, and it bears repeating so I'll say it yet again-fellas, you need to be crystal clear w/the women in your lives, as to what you expect and accept, and what is not acceptable and unreasonable. It is unreasonable to expect a man who puts in upwards of 70 hours a week on his feet, to come and "share" in the household work, especially if that woman doesn't even work outside the home in the first place. Now, if she does work outside the home, the man needs to get brutally honest w/himself-how can a person do an effective job on two fronts? Going back to Sun Tzu, does he talk about the effectiveness of fighting two wars at once? History shows us that such athing isn't possible. So, how can anyone expect a person to work fulltime outside the home, yet come home and keep house for an entire family? This is why I always said to myself, when I finally settled down I wanted a housewife. We both can be working outside the home, somethings going to go lacking.
Men need to get their heads clear, and sound off like they got a pair. I don't ask my woman to come and share in the work I do. She shouldn't ask me to do same. I have my duties, and I do them w/o any rap. She should follow my lead. Period.
Salaam
Mu
April 5th, 2008 at 5:23 am
Roy,
Don't hold your breath waiting for the ladies to jump in on this one. Most likely, they won't. As has been noted before, when the rubber hits the road on those "meat and potatos" issues, the feminists disappear. Yet another reason why they suck at debating, because they know their ideas don't wash in the realworld w/real human beings.
Salaam
Mu
April 5th, 2008 at 7:26 am
Michael Claymore Says:
"Its all pretty simple- in any situation where he does more work outside the home she should do more work inside the house- and vice versa. And any man or woman who doesn't like that deal can simply stay un-married."
Michael Claymore, it ain't rocket science. Why can't they get it?
I completely agree with you. Little children under 8 can be a handful, I admit that. And I can even understand the average housewife's cry of wanting some adult stimulation after 8-12hrs of screaming, high-energy kids. That's perfectly normal, and a man in the same situation would feel the same way.
That being said, I have a couple of points I have to make regarding this ongoing issue:
1) In this day and age, no woman can claim she's bound to her house. This is not the 1920s. If you resent having to do housework or you simply don't like it, or you're not the type of person to look after little kids all day long, put the kids in daycare and GET A DAMN JOB.
I understand that some women would rather be with their kids while they're very little ... I understand that. But what you also have to understand is that WE DO NOT LIVE IN A PERFECT, IDEAL WORLD. There are consequences for every action we take, sometime good, not so good, bad, not so bad. You can not have it all. You can not have your cake and eat it too. You can not stay home all day with just one or two children and NOT do any housework at all.
If you decide to work (like I did, even though I did stay home a bit with my first child) you have to live with the consequence of having other people take care of your kids ... and perhaps not in a way you'd like.
If you decide to stay home with them, know that the kids AND the house is your full time job, until hubby gets home. After he gets home, you SHARE the few remaining chores and childcare activities. However, he should not have to come home after several hours of his own work and do YOUR work for you. Imagine if the roles were reserved, there would be marching in the streets! Do NOT sit on your ass all day and say that the one or two children you have prevented you from doing housework. That is B.S. Especially if you have infants (who sleep at least 2/3 of the time anyway) you have NO excuse NOT to carry out your other duties.
That is why corporations work so well because between certain hours, everyone is bound to certain tasks if they willing choose the job that they did. Therefore, since no one can FORCE you to stay home, if you DO stay home, the children and the house are your responsibility within the hours your husband is at his own job.
2) If you have 3 or more kids under the age of 5, I can understand it is hard to juggle both the kids and keeping on top of the other chores as well. However, the average American family these days consists of 2.1 or less children per woman (according to the U.S. Census Bureau, 2006 American Community Survey). Provided that you discipline your children (eg: don't spoil them and let them think they are the ones in charge) nobody can tell me with a straight face that their job of looking after two kids and at the same time putting some laundry in the machine, vacuuming, folding clothes and so on is such a monumental task that they can't get it done within 8 hrs. It's BS. And just another ploy to ride high on entitlement, play the victim card and villify men for being lazy, inaqueduate and the list goes on.
My children are just two years a part so when my second son was born my firstborn was still a toddler and they were very active kids even at that age. When they weren't napping, and I had something to do, I would put them down beside me with their toys and I would do the wash or the dusting/vacuuming etc. My children were never in doubt as to who was in charge. When I say sit and be quiet because mom had something to do, they did exactly that. So I didn't have to run around chasing after them every minute. I'm not saying my children were angels all the time, they weren't and they did try to test me, but they were very much aware that if they misbehaved, there will be consequences they will not like. Children need clear boundaries. Put those in place early on and they will respect you enough to listen to you when you speak.
In my neighbourhood, in some households, it's the children who seem to run the house. Mom has no control over them so of course as soon as she starts to do for eg the wash she has to leave it to go chase after the children. And by the end of the day she's really exhausted from all that running around. Once again, there are consequence for your actions. If you don't discipline your kids, expect them to drive you up the wall. It's nobody fault but yours, the parents.
You know, it's unbelievable how modern women make childcare out to be soooo godawful and hyperstressful etc. What I'd like to know is how did women do it in the 50s and beyond? The children were always fairly well-groomed and well-behaved, the house in working order (not necessarily spotless, but enough to receive guests without feeling embarassed) ... well, one of the reasons why the children were more well-behaved is probably because more fathers actually lived in the same house with them, but if those women were able to pull it off without all the incessant complaining (ancedote, but I know my mom did), why can't we?
It's like all the hype about giving birth ... women have been doing for literally millions of years. Still, in some tribes in Africa, the women farmers would give birth in the fields, tie the baby across their backs and off to work they go again. Yet, two kids and few chores and we whine that its too much.
I know every family is different, but when I hear these women complaining about working within their own homes it just makes me fume from the ears. First of all, no one is forcing you to stay home. Second of all feel lucky when your family can live off of one income nowadays. In my firm I often hear some of the women who have little kids say they wished they could stay home and their family could survive off of just hubby's salary, but they can not so she HAS to work.
Thirdly and perhaps the most important, is exactly as Michael Claybourne said, and what I discussed with our most recent resident fem, Jeana, on the Feminist Dissident thread. While your husband is out working to provide for the family it is your JOB to take care of the kids and the house. I think it is grossly unfair that after 8-12 hrs a day on the job, he has to come home and cook, wash, clean ... do basically ALL the things that should have be done while he was at work. Basically ALL the stay at home moms in my neighbourhood and from what I hear from men at work, require their husbands to do this or else ...
As long as he's outside the house working and he's actually working until he sets his foot back into the house (not out carousing with his buddies) then you are both "on the job" so to speak. He out and you in. When he gets home if there are still some things to do, you share the remaining chores or if the kids are still up the husband can now take over (which is only fair since she has been with them all day and its good for him to bond with his children) and she can go and finish the other stuff that didn't get done during the day.
If when he comes home and everything is done and the kids are either down for the evening or getting ready to do so, you're basically both "done" with work for the day and can both relax. During the weekends he can take on the bulk of childcare responsibilities while you do something else.
It really crazy that so many women can stop thinking about themselves to realise this. I mean, had things been reversed they would have expected their husband to do the same.
I dunno, but it doesn't seem that complicated to me. It's all about team work. And keeping gender politics out of your marriage if you want to work effectively as a team, especially when children are involved. My husband and I have always worked and thankfully we were able to get extra help when things became too hectic for us, but it's not like I haven't experienced being a SAHM, albeit a very short time--one year with my first born and 6 mths with my second. In addition to temperary spurts of staying home in between. Therefore, I KNOW what I'm talking about from experience.
What is funny is that when the roles reverse and its the dad who stays home and the mom who works, if she comes home and everything is not done, it is war. Even when things ARE done, but not to her standard. She complains and say "what the hell have you been doing all day?" But let the man ask the same question, let the man expect to come home to a clean house and he's a sexist jerk who doesn't appreciate the hard and terrible work it takes to look after two little children.
Christ. I seriously don't know how you guys put up with all this nonsense.
April 5th, 2008 at 7:37 am
Correction:
It really crazy that so many women can stop thinking about themselves to realise this. I mean, had things been reversed they would have expected their husband to do the same.
The above should read:
It's really crazy that so many women can't stop thinking about themselves to realise this. I mean, had things been reversed they would have expected their husbands to do the same.
April 5th, 2008 at 9:11 am
Davina Says:
"Christ. I seriously don't know how you guys put up with all this nonsense."
Fewer and fewer guys are.
From:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-09-12-census-marriage_N.htm?csp=34
"Almost three-quarters of men and almost two-thirds of women in their 20s in 2006 said they had never been married, according to Census data released today that shows a sharp increase in never-married twentysomethings in just six years. "
"Among men ages 20-29, 73% said they had never been married in 2006, compared with 64% in 2000. For women, 62.2% had never married in 2006, compared with 53.4% six years earlier."
"The data also show the percentage of those marrying in their 20s continues to decline."
Does anyone seriously expect that the majority of these young people are going to just magically wake up one day when they are in their thirties and decide that they need to get married?
Gee, I wonder what they articles about housework will look like in about 10 years???
April 5th, 2008 at 10:11 am
Davina,
Thank you so much for chiming in, and you know, you hit the nail on the head: my mom had four little ones and the house to deal with, and she did w/cool efficiency. My grandmother had two kids, a house, AND several businesses of her own! My other half's mom had two kids and a sprawling suburban home, and only recently, nearing 80, has she toned down her duties-and her husband has been retired for years.
Its just ridiculous, and again, you know who I blame for this? Yup, you guessed it, the men. It is Mike C's fault that his woman won't lift a finger to do anything around the house. His fault, and his alone. Why?
Because aint no way on God's green earth am I gonna not only put up w/but also finance something like that. Think about it-would you pay for BS service anywhere else in this world? How long would you keep your job for such poor performance? Its ridiculous. But you get what you pay for.
If I ever had a woman do something like that and then had the gall to say "or else" my response would be, I'm going out for a bit of time downtown. When I get back you'd better be gone. You don't want to be here when I get back.
When more and more men start actually putting their foot down things will change.
Period.
Salaam
Mu
April 5th, 2008 at 10:16 am
Think about The Brady Bunch for a minute. It was 1969 and a non-working mother of 6 able bodied children needed a live in maid, that cooked, cleaned, did the laundry, did the shopping, and many other things so what in the heck did the non-working stay at home mom do?
I think this is a great example of life imitating the entertainment media
b
April 5th, 2008 at 10:22 am
I don't know, where I was raised, everyone was expected to just shut up and do their jobs. The idea of a study that compares the amount of housework men and women do seems like a waste of time and money. I'm sure few people will agree with me on this one.
This does remind me of something interesting, though. My ex-wife used to complain and complain that things weren't 'fair' in our household. She always had a mental ledger about this and that - who did what housework, etc. Funny how she forgot about her fairness ledger when the bill suddenly appeared on my desk. In my personal experience, anyone who contsantly harps about fairness in their personal relationships or job is really pulling a con-job. These people are seldom interested in any explanations that contradict their version of events. And, usually, if these people just piped down and went about their business, things would run smoother. Again, that's just my experience.
Sometimes life just 'aint fair, you know?
April 5th, 2008 at 10:27 am
Expounding on what metalman Says it is true that marriage is a 50-50 deal but some times it is 60-40, 40-60, 90-10, 10-90 100-0 and 100. That is the way it is . . .
b
April 5th, 2008 at 11:25 am
Metalman, I'm curious: does your ex still complain? Or has life gotten better for her?
One huge problem, that really came out during the Spitzer scandal, is just how much people DON'T TALK about these things. I'm a huge believer in talking about everything in detail, leaving no stone turned. Assuming gets people in big trouble.
So, again, I gotta put at least some of the blame on the fellas here; you should approach your love life like you approach your job. Interview the potential prospects in your life, and ask them hard questions. Gauge their responses. Afterall, your looking to make a major investment, the most important of your life!-and you have every right to expect a nice ROI. Get that crap about "love" outta your head. That's a recent thing, and from what we can tell here, not a very good one. Stay focused on your self interests FIRST, then everything else after that.
Salaam
April 5th, 2008 at 12:05 pm
Mu'Min Bey, that is fantastic advice. The problem is that most who get married are young, or were and have not had many serious jobs that they were going to keep and do not even know that process. This information needs to get out to young people like in high school and collage. There also needs to be instructive guidelines about the interview process because up to 25 and even beyond they are ill-equipped because they are inexperienced. Sorry about that to you young ones but one day you will understand that I am not being harsh just truthful.
Mu'Min, sounds like a book or booklet opportunity for you. How about it, I think it would be great!
b
April 5th, 2008 at 12:47 pm
Bernie Misiura Says:
"Mu'Min, sounds like a book or booklet opportunity for you. How about it, I think it would be great!"
I suggest Marc Rudov's "The Man's No-Nonsense Guide to Women: How to Succeed in Romance on Planet Earth" as research material, as far as the dating process goes. Too bad this book wasn't around when I was a younger, it probably could have saved me a whole lot of grief.
April 5th, 2008 at 12:56 pm
(Davina) -- "Christ. I seriously don't know how you guys put up with all this nonsense."
Girl, I believe you are sitting on the answer........
April 5th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
I'm a single dad. I do it ALL. (Not that much different from when I was married, since I also cooked and was the one adamant about getting the laundry done).
The sponsors/ promoters of this study can kiss my glacier white butt.
Also the "chores" that women are compaining that men don't do, half the time it's not something important to us to get as neurotic about it as they do, so since we don't obsess about every microbe in the house, every dusty bric a brac (yes, dusting HER bric a brac is a joint chore?) we're not pulling our share.
You forgot who installs the locks, fixes the phone, tv, plumbing, electrical, unsticks the garbage disposal, checks the fire extinguisher, installs and monitors the smoke alarms, replaces the hot water heater, fixes the furnace, the dishwasher, the washer and dryer, cleans the lint out of the dryer vent, puts the furniture togeather, fixes the computer, deals with the utilities, cleans the vents, changes filters, fixes the vacuum, gets the wrinkle out of the carpet, manhandles the carpet cleaner, drains treats and fills the waterbed, installs the ceiling fan, fixes the holes in the sheetrock, textures and paints, shingles the roof, replaces the fence, builds the swingset, trims the trees...
and tells the neighbors to knock off that 3 am racket.
April 5th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
OH, forgot ...
installs the ceramic tile, seats the toilets, caulks the tub, sets the wall tile, glues the linoleum, snakes out the exterior sewage lines, winterizes the house, replaces the garage door opener, gets the new remotes to work with the new opener, connects programs and tunes the entertainment center, gets the wireless working, installs the over-the-range microwave, and monitors repairs and maintains all the vehicles.
April 5th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
OD,
You're on a roll, man, you're on a roll! I love it.
April 5th, 2008 at 6:24 pm
Here Kitty Kitty Kitty...
Demonspawn says: "(she does most of the litter box cleaning, a chore I detest, in return I do a bit more of the laundry"
PK shares: Have you considered getting a littermaid (or a robo litter?) I have had one for about 14 years and it works great. (If you're interested, get the OLDER model such as an LM500, LM700 series, not the new elites which are total junk). Robo litter is interesting but they cost about $300 bucks and use an enclosed area that I think would annoy my open-air cat.
My cat loves it because he ALWAYS has fresh, clean litter and we empty the waste box out and add fresh litter about every week. It uses very little litter (we use a 40lb box about every 6 months.) If you go for vacation and your kitty eats hard food, you can leave him for about a week with food and water without a problem (although mine gets lonely for human companionship.)
NOTE: Not a commercial endorsement. I just love the product.
April 5th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
Paradigm shift
Mu'Min Bey writes: "Polish Knight hits the nail on the head: its the WOMEN who don't want Mr. Mom. I've said again and again, when the rubber hits the road, women want their men out earning a buck, not holding a duster. My other half is very clear on this point, which is why she has NEVER complained about such stupid, silly stuff."
PK responds: Thanks Mu'Min. It's clear that men need to stand up for themselves and I think if just a fraction of them did so (and no, 0/100 is not what I mean!) SIGNIFICANT fraction of men stood up for themselves, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.
It's simply amazing how many men out there undermine themselves or bash other men. I see much less of this today, though, which I why I think there's a paradigm shift in politics. When men go from being servants and ATM machines apologizing for existing to someone who demands something in return for their hard work, well, watch out! Things will get interesting VERY fast!
April 5th, 2008 at 8:38 pm
I have two daughters, in their twenties, and believe me -- they expect NOTHING from men.
They are self-sufficient and have enough relationship experience to have discarded all the silly romance BS.
Because they are not dependent upon men, they are really interesting women! Not seeking validation from the next member of the dick squad.....
I made them.
I like them.
I love them.
Isn't that how a dad is supposed to feel about his legacy?
They are just funny really smart young women with very bad attitudes.
Wonder how that happened?
All the girls on Glenn's harem -- what is your take on father-daughter relationships?
Tell us about your fathers....
April 6th, 2008 at 2:16 am
Here is a link to the actual report mentioned in the CNN article:
http://www.contemporaryfamilies.org/subtemplate.php?t=briefingPapers&ext=menshousework
The actual report is actually very pro-husband in nature.
April 6th, 2008 at 9:25 am
Davina just hit the nail on the head. I salute her for telling it like it is.
Taras
April 6th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Davina Says:
April 5th, 2008 at 7:26 am
[Lots of really insightful stuff missing, then...]
Christ. I seriously don't know how you guys put up with all this nonsense.
I didn't put up with it. There was a point where my ex stated "I'm on strike". So I fired her. Now she gets to run her own household, and complain about how she was abused. Two more marriages and nine addresses later, she still hasn't figured it out.
April 6th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Darn, I sent this article to my husband and his reply to me was...
"Get to packing and cleaning and stop being on the computer!"
HAHAHA! (He's out of town and I stayed to pack and clean...hehe)
April 6th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
Apparently, the women do not wish to discuss their relationships with their fathers.
That is puzzling.....
April 7th, 2008 at 11:46 am
My wife gave me a table saw for Christmas this year, so that I could do finish work on several not-quite-complete home improvement projects, and I made a surprising discovery: Just about any guy you talk to has either a friend or a family member who's lost fingers to one of these things (or their close cousins: the circular saw and the mitre saw).
Maybe we'll see that study next: the proportion of men and women who are injured doing housework.
April 7th, 2008 at 7:41 pm
My ex- wife caused the need for a lot of household repairs... she never paid much attention when I told her how to properly anchor stuff in the walls. As a result, she made lots of unnecessary holes whenever she put up pictures and the like. Even when I gave up on explanations and told her simply not to do them, she still took the drill out when I awas at work... and created a need for more repairs... sigh. A man's work is never done.
Today I fix anything happily, but today my wife cooks! (And she doesn't make holes in the wall, either...)
April 7th, 2008 at 8:16 pm
I think it is now appropriate to offer a classic labor economics perspective on this drivel-ridden story.
What does it cost to outsource the"woman's" duties of light housework?
$100 per week? $200 per week. Rarely $3000 per week. I'd say in most parts of the U.S. This valuation range covers most of the "housework" done by women.
Now what does it cost to outsource the man's project-oriented and outdoor endeavors?
If these women are so smart, they can get jobs and offload their tasks cheaply.
When it comes to the man's tasks, well, that might be a wee bit more expensive.
So, why don't women who do housekeeping for a weekly fee also do male-type chores? Seems that they could "clean up".
Must be a preference issue or a skills issue, but surely no man is preventing women from doing this, right?
April 7th, 2008 at 8:53 pm
April 7th, 2008 at 8:54 pm
I hate it when I forget to close those tabs! )-:
b
April 8th, 2008 at 6:39 am
This is just another feminist attack on men. To run a house hold with or with out children it takes 2. Men do the "hard" work and weman do the inside house work. I would trade the "inside" work any day for the "hard outside work".
I have done the inside work when wife was ill. I will take that job any day. Feminists quit your wineing it is a cake job with all the automation you can think of, we are not asking you to wash the cloths on a rock in the stream.
Maybe men can write an article wineing about all the jobs we do that the feminist CANT perform.
It takes 2, all jobs in the house hold are important, shut up and do the job and ENJOY the institution of marrage and raising children. Make it a fun, good and fruitful task your children will love you for it.
Ohio Dave
April 8th, 2008 at 7:04 am
The University of Michigan issued a press release on April 4 touting a similar study of men's contributions to household chores: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-04/uom-ehm040408.php In the press release was this explanation:
"For the study, researchers analyzed data from time diaries, considered the most accurate way to assess how people spend their time. They supplemented the analysis with data from questionnaires asking both men and women to recall how much time they spent on basic housework in an average week, including time spent cooking, cleaning and doing other basic work around the house. Excluded from these "core" housework hours were tasks like gardening, home repairs, or washing the car.
So it appears that, based on this, this study is rigged to only consider the amount of time men devote to cooking/cleaning/childcare, etc., i.e., "traditional women's work." In the warped perspective of these academics, we will only achieve the longed-for "equality" when men are devoting equal time to this particular set of household responsibilities.
I would love it if some qualified researcher(s) did a study of the small & decreasing amount of time women spend on household work, but strictly limiting the definition of that work to household repairs, yard work, home maintenance, car maintenance, solving computer problems, installation/maintenance of home A/V systems, keeping the home free of bugs and pests, garbage removal, etc, etc. But that's unrealistic...we couldn't possibly expect that our academicians might release something that shows women in an unfavorable light. That might call the entire feminist credo into question. God forbid. Can no one in the mainstream media comment on how biased and unbalanced these studies are?
April 8th, 2008 at 8:54 am
Wow. Just....wow! If reports such as this one were never taken seriously, Glenn, I would be falling out of my chair with laughter. While it's true that some men disregard their wives' need for a helping hand with the household chores (my brother is an excellent example), there are many men out there who do lend a helping hand. Others also complete most of the outside chores AND bring home the proverbial bacon. However, I am reminded of my ex (yes, ex) wife who accompanied me on a military tour of duty to Pearl Harbor several years ago. During my tour there, I was assigned to a tug boat and to a ferry, both of which kept me at work for as much as 18 hours per day, sometimes. A typical workday was at least 16 hours. My ex-wife elected to not work. However, I arrived home one evening only to be handed a list of household chores. According to my ex-wife, even though I was working as much as I had been, and even though she was not working at all, she told me, I still had to do half of the work inside the house (I always took care of the outside in spite of my schedule). So, here's an idea for these women of the new age, Glenn: may they remain happily single!
April 8th, 2008 at 10:03 am
Okay, I know alot of you out there are not going to believe this, and you are going to label me a man basher (which I am not, but yet I never hear anyone saying the phrase woman basher...) but I know I can not be the only woman out there who pulls MORE than her fair share of weight. Yes, outside chores are still chores. I live in Texas, therefore the lawn is mowed once a month during winter months and twice a month during summer. I am the one who does ALL inside domestic chores BUT I also wash my own car, take the garbage out, walk the dogs and take care of absolutely everything and anything that I know I can physically accomplish on my own (I've wired phone lines, tightened plumbing, hung lamps, replaced minor lightswitch plates, tiles, I can use a hammer and a few assorted tools without instruction ) before even daring to ask my husband to pick his bottom up off the couch. He is a welder, I do accounting. He has a 40 minute one way commute, I have and hour and fifteen min one way commute. He dirties twice as many clothes as I do yet I do all the laundry and pay for all the laundry supplies. He eats and dirties twice as much as I do yet not only do I do all the cleanup, I also buy all the groceries. I work full time, yes in an air conditioned office, but I do the work of 3 people, plus all of the financials for our home. I pay half of ALL bills concerning our home and living expenses. His chores consist of the mowing of the lawn as stated above, home repairs that I am not capable of (which trust me, sometimes it takes 6 months for those repairs to take place!) such as fixing a porch step (took about an hour and a half, after waiting for a month and a half for it to be done), setting up the dish satellite (which is still not done, I've been waiting 5 months for this and I pay half the dish bill), in the three years I have owned my car (bought new, BY ME), he has changed the brake pads once, jumped off the battery once (I was at home, I can even use jumper cables when alone in public and just ask for a strangers assistance for the jump), fixed 2 flat tires. IN THREE YEARS. Yet he can not perform ONE side job without my assistance to hold a flashlight, help him pick up something, run to the store 3 times a week for his desert and soda etc. or whatever else it is he wants. I hate to do chores when he is home because the interruptions are CONSTANT. He stops me from doing what I am working on to help him with what he is working on. I did not give birth, yet I married a man that already had 4 children. It was ME who took the wear and tear and gasoline costs in my car to carry the children back and forth every other weekend, sometimes every weekend for over 18 years. I paid for half of thier Christmas. I made sacrifices each and every year for them so he could be the kind of dad he wanted to be. In those years I paid far more than my share too many times to count just so the kids and he could go fishing or whatever else it was they wanted to do while I sat at home never having my husband take me out or spend money on my for Xmas or Bdays or anything like that. I did not bear hard feelings for those sacrifices either. So I know that there are women out there just like me who get tired of hearing the excuses as to why we have to pick up after the men. If I can pick up after myself and it takes a half a second to do so, why can't he pick up after himself. I mean come on! If there are TWO dirty clothes hampers, each one no more than 5 feet from each side of you and you still have to drop your dirty clothes on the floor in the middle of the two hampers, what does that say? And yet he will still pull the card *I work in a weld shop, I sweat at my job, I work harder than you, so I should be able to sit on my butt and do nothing at home!* So you tell me, how fair is this situation?? And why am I paying the price for his career choice? He CHOSE that career. He went to school for it. He is a smart man, he could have chosen differently, but for the rest of my life I am supposed to pay the price for his career choice? Again I ask, this is fair?
April 8th, 2008 at 10:20 am
‘Invisible’ housework is all the work that men do that women refuse to admit as work (our supposed ‘hobbies’ or the work they refuse to count cuz we do it with a smile or without a frown). ‘Invisible’ housework is the work that we all have noted is usually done by us men, but not counted on research studies done by people taught from an early age to be chauvinistic towards men.
April 8th, 2008 at 10:46 am
Offended_Dad Says – “You forgot who installs the locks, fixes the phone, tv, plumbing, electrical, unsticks the garbage disposal, checks the fire extinguisher, installs and monitors the smoke alarms, replaces the hot water heater, fixes the furnace, the dishwasher, the washer and dryer, cleans the lint out of the dryer vent, puts the furniture togeather, fixes the computer, deals with the utilities, cleans the vents, changes filters, fixes the vacuum, gets the wrinkle out of the carpet, manhandles the carpet cleaner, drains treats and fills the waterbed, installs the ceiling fan, fixes the holes in the sheetrock, textures and paints, shingles the roof, replaces the fence, builds the swingset, trims the trees...
and tells the neighbors to knock off that 3 am racket”.
This all fits nicely under the category, ‘Invisible’ housework of the men’s variety (some very few women will claim to do these things, but then as many men do the ‘invisible housework that women supposedly do). Dad eee O, if we admitted to men’s ‘invisible’ housework, we might have to admit that women aren’t oppressed in the home (which we refuse to do since that is one of our major sources of power-sole claim to victimhood).
April 8th, 2008 at 10:51 am
Perhaps I came on as a bit harsh, that was not my intention really. I just noticed that there wasn't really a good response from a woman on this blog.
I think that it is a good thing to see what men really have to say about situations like these, it is enlightening. I do have to say that there are an awful lot of women out there that ARE pampered spoilt women (I NOT being one of them!) I saw a whole new world from a man's point of view once I married a man with children. The role of a stepmother is never smooth and has constant pot holes and speed bumps. Again, I am not bitter about sacrifices I made for the sake of the kids throughout my marriage. Nothing but good has come from that. These kids learned what it was like to have a father in thier lives. Learned that there were more options out there for them and they would not have to settle for a relationship that was exactly like thier parents. They have a lifetime of memories with thier father and that is something that will never leave them. I am thankful for that. For thier sake and his.
But I am not a spoilt woman. I do without over and over again so that he can do or have things he wants. After 19 years, the kids are all grown and graduated, the child support has stopped. But I have severe physical limitations now and these *silly* chores are increasingly harder for me to keep up with. If they are so simple to do, and take so little time to do them, then what is the problem of men just helping out? If I can spread flea and tick granules throughout the yard, why can't you take your dishes to the kitchen instead of making me tote them all in there before I wash them? If I ask you to do something for me about once a month, and you take your sweet time to do it whenever you FEEL like doing it, then why can't you throw those clothes in the hamper instead of making me jog all around the house picking up your clothes out of each and every room before I wash them? Now mind you, of these 19 years, we have lived in a HOUSE only 5 of those. The rest of the years we lived in apartments so there was no yard work to be done. I have to give him this though, at that time, I had the worse car in history and he had to work on that thing every darn week. So no, I did not harp on him about housework then. (Note, I paid for the parts and I was the one he was yelling at the entire time he worked on that car while he screamed at the carborator or water pump or whatever was out at the time). And I am not a nag. I will ask for something to be done only after I have figured out is it something I can not do myself.
Often I find my chores are seen as invisible as well. He complains if I have not had the time to clean the house properly, yet as I have aged, I have accumulated a handful of physical limitations I must deal with and what used to take me a few hours to do, now takes half a day ending with me in so much pain that I can barely stand yet alone walk. It seems I never stop. After commuting and working all day, I come home to my second job that seems unappreciated and taken for granted. I actually stop moving around 8 oclock on most days. I am exhausted too. I am physically spent. And the first thing I hear when I come in the door is not *Hy babe, how's your day?* Its *Whats to eat?* In fact. sometimes I think that is really my name. *Whats to eat?*
Sometimes it is not just me bitching. Of course, during PMS week you can bet your money that is what it is ALL about. But the rest of the time, no. I carry much more weight than alot of women I have heard about. So yes, I need help sometimes guys. It is not about being selfish or lazy. It is about there are 10 thousand things we do as women that are just as invisible to you as you are complaining that is invisible to us.
And just for the record, no, yard work, car work, home repairs should NOT be considered hobbies any more than scrubbing a toilet should be. They should be considered as viable chores that are also not enjoyable, but things that need to be done. But if I can help you with yours......why can't you help me with mine? I'm not asking for you to wash MY clothes. And I will wash yours if you ASK me rather than ORDER me. Just don't expect me to read your mind and view by osmosis that your underwear drawer is empty when you are the one that emptied it this morning. And don't wait till 9 oclock at night to tell me you need socks cleaned when I get up at 5 am and you dont stir till 7.
Yes, these types of things are on going arguement fodder at my house as well. But as I said, I am not a kept woman. I hold more than my fair share of weight around my house. And I think if everyone would just simply pick up after themselves a little more perhaps this wouldn't be as big an arguement as people have let it become. Yes, women can do a little more than alot of them either think they can or want to admit they can. It should not require a man to screw in a light bulb, especially if he is paying for her to have weekly massage visits. But if she is independant, self sufficient, and is not only capable but DOES things for herself, then I don't think it too much to ask for men to take the extra step to pick up after themselves a little. That's all.
April 8th, 2008 at 10:52 am
JRP Says – “The actual report is actually very pro-husband in nature.”
And the reporting on the report is misandric. What a surprise. If we couldn’t insert misandry into the study itself, could we at least insert it into the reporting about the report.
Thanks for the link.
April 8th, 2008 at 11:20 am
Tresa – your husband is a welder and you an accountant. That must mean your jobs are equally dangerous. You could easily get a paper cut and he could easily lose his vision. You could easily break a nail and he could easily lose a limb. You could easily get stabbed by a staple and he could easily lose his life. Sounds equal to me…I wonder who makes more?
If you cannot resolve things to a mutual satisfaction, Don’t get mad, get out! My wife is working on her PHD right now, you would be surprised at the thoughtlessness I have to up with (but I love her dearly and she tolerates things about me that others might not like either). Also, your lack of coherent, organized righting style is annoying, but that is a separe issue.
But before you decide to leave, you might want to hear what us guys have to say about this cuz the men's side of things is what we find lacking in most major media and research reports- and his inability to say what he feels doesn't make him wrong- it just makes him ignorant. Men and women have different standards of cleanliness, but men are expected to live with the standard that most women expect (while most men’s standard of cleanliness is viewed by most as inferior.
Let’s say he does a job in an hour and a half, have you taken into account the time it took him to figure out how to do the job in his head while he was ‘sitting on the couch’? Major and minor jobs go quicker when they are well planned.
I do hear your concerns (and try to validate them – if he bothers you that much and you cannot find a mutually agreeable solution, move on, do not complain). On the other hand, what many of us men here are saying is that our concerns are not heard in the general public. Men are deemed lacking because we are viewed through a female lens, not a gender neutral lens that takes men and women’s desires equally.
April 8th, 2008 at 11:21 am
metalman Says - “I don't know, where I was raised, everyone was expected to just shut up and do their jobs. The idea of a study that compares the amount of housework men and women do seems like a waste of time and money. I'm sure few people will agree with me on this one.”
Sorry, I do not agree. We need studies that show all this but must include the ‘Invisible’ housework that men do so that men can show it to their wives to help get them to stop nagging them about unfairness.
April 8th, 2008 at 11:23 am
Davina Says - “I understand that some women would rather be with their kids while they're very little ... I understand that. But what you also have to understand is that WE DO NOT LIVE IN A PERFECT, IDEAL WORLD. There are consequences for every action we take, sometime good, not so good, bad, not so bad. You can not have it all. You can not have your cake and eat it too. You can not stay home all day with just one or two children and NOT do any housework at all.”
And that is why so many MRA’s say that feminists wants rights without responsibilities (or we say that they refuse to own up)….Many thanks for yoru insight and fairness (me think the gender war could be settled if more women were fair like you- daring to see men’s side of things as well as women’s.
April 8th, 2008 at 11:23 am
Ray Says – “Time/motion studies are never offered in evidence to show all the wasted time and motion that housewives routinely engage in, in these hogwash studies about women doing unfair amounts of housework. Time/motion studies would show the incompetence of the average housewife in the management of her housework, and the unnecessary time and motion she expends, in my opinion.”
YUP YUP YUP…..you nailed it on the freakin head, dude
April 8th, 2008 at 11:26 am
Flighty – “Don't forget, women also define when the housework is "done." Most men are perfectly happy to live in a reasonably clean space. Many women refuse to live in anything other than a spotless, dirtless biodome. Thus causing themselves even more work than is actually necessary.”
This discrepancy in expectations was noted, but cannot be said enough. It is an important note since women want to be able to define what is acceptable and when the job is done. Women want to be the judge of men and refuse to let men judge how well the women are doing (if the men judge what the women do it is called oppression, if the women judge how well the men do, I call it matriarchy, but it could also be described as bossy or any number of other things….
April 8th, 2008 at 11:27 am
Serenity Now – “I can get more housework done during the commercial breaks of an NFL football game than my wife (and appently many wives, since other men have expressed similar observations) seems to be able to get done all week. More stupid agenda-driven advocacy "research". The best solution for a man is to not live with a woman. The housework they endlesslly complain about is trivial- that's one reason they have to complain about it so much. They have to puff it up to make it seem important to themselves. Don't get married. Don't move in with a woman. Don't commit to monogamy. Enjoy your freedom (and peace and quiet).”
Don’t get married and they cannot claim you do not do as much work as they do. Marriage strike for men! Hypocrisy when it comes to marriage strike. Women are refusing to marry to end oppression (men are just afraid to commit)…
April 8th, 2008 at 11:27 am
Danny Says - “Just so we are clear here folks this is not just feminists doing this. This is something that both feminist and non-feminist women do. And don't you all find it kind of...I don't know....sexist and hypocritical that they complain about cooking, cleaning, etc...being call "woman's work" but have no problems writing off the chores that men do as "hobbies"?”
This is hypocritical BS (not what you said, but the attitude of women who claim to be feminist or not). Of course women will do more work as long as we refuse to admit hat men have gender specific roles and as long as refuse to admit what they are. If we had to admit that men’s work was exists and what it si, then it could be shown that men do as much work as women.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck and lays eggs like a duck, it a freakin’ duck. If it acts like a hypocritical feminist, then it is a feminist regardless of whether it wants to self identify. What is a feminist? It is a person who cares only about women (and judges men according to standards of self possessed and self interested women who refuse to see the oppression of men in its full extent and only see the oppression of women, often exaggerating women’s oppression). Men are the one’s whose genitalia get cut in this country, but when feminists want to declare the oppression of women in this country, they point to other countries where women’s genitals are cut. When a man’s genitals are cut, it is called circumcision and has a medical necessity (supposedly-not that I believe it), and when a woman’s genitals are cut, it is called mutilation. Most feminists are hypocrites at heart and thus most women refuse to admit they are feminists even though they might accept the full blown hypocrisy tooth and nail. Some of the most dangerous feminists are those who will not admit they are feminists. The self admitting feminist is less hypocritical than the woman who clings to many aspects of feminism, but then tries to pretend she isn’t one. Watch out boys, do not believe a woman just cuz she says she isn’t a duck, listen to whether or not she quacks, waddles or lays eggs.
April 8th, 2008 at 11:28 am
Bernie Misiura – “Actually, I notice clutter and it bothers me. My wife is a terrible housekeeper and this is one of the items that cause our arguments. If I do it and the many other things that she does not I really do not need her around, because the companionship and intimate relations is not worth it if that is all there is to the relationship. We both have to do our part and she is not living up to her end of the bargain. There is more but not fair to talk about it without her here, she would let me but she is not here.”
According to feminist rules, you’d have every right then to withhold sex from her. Honey, you’d be getting more sexing if you’d hold up your weight around here.
April 8th, 2008 at 11:31 am
John Boy – “I have also noticed that much of the housework that women perform tends to be somewhat unecessary and it done to meet her satisfaction not his or the rest of the families. Men rarely fuss as much as women. Perhaps vacuuming once every two weeks is good enough but she insists on every week and then claims that he is a pig and whines about it expecting him to make up for it another way. This is made worse when the woman considers the home to be her turf. It does not matter if his office is a mess just as long as he brings in the bacon.”
Dude, exactly my sentiments. Most guys don’t give a poop about dusting until it is making you sneeze. Dust happens, why fight it? But if we are not as zealous about dust as they are, we are somehow deficient? As measured by what, the woman scale (“men are judged deficient when measured with the feminine ruler” – not sure whose quote this is, but it is so true………
At the same time, many women will let “their” aspect of the housework go to total hell for weeks at a time until one of her friends is coming over (she may even exclude you from having your own friends over cuz she hasn’t done her share of the housework). What she is basically saying is I do not care enough about you to keep this place from looking like a dump (what you think doesn’t matter), but I do not want my friends (or yours) to know how much of a messy person I am.
Why shouldn’t people be given preference to perform task that they prefer or enjoy? Why should men’s work be discounted if the man enjoys it. And is the man enjoying the task or the freedom not to be bothered by anyone while he is performing the task. The only time a man might get to be left alone is when he is running the lawnmower or fixing his wife’s car (what woman is gonna harass her husband to do some barely necessary task when he is washing her car or maintaing/fixing it).
Since you men put yourself in such a good frame of mind while you do your chores, we have decided that your time doesn’t count (disgusting).
April 8th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
Im a woman and a Christian. This is what I believe God has done for me. He has put it in my heart to be very happy doing for the people around me. I am not a good housekeeper but I do what I do and the most important things get done. Some of it isn't that important to me and I have a marvelous husband who takes me the way I am just like I do him. This world is getting crazy. We're fed the gush that there's something wrong with us if we help other people and don't put ourselves first. That is totally against the teachings of the Christian and Jewish God. And certainly not what Jesus taught us. That's why people are becoming so miserable. How happy can anybody be who thinks only about what he/she wants. Watch a baby screaming for what it wants. That's not happy. they learn if taught properly that there are others. I think these women that talk that way are very unhappy and I feel sorry for them. Not because they don't get what they want, but because they don't really know what they want.
enough from me. I get carried away sometimes. Love Glen Sacks columns and the work he is goind.
April 8th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
Okay, I do not recall outwardly insulting anyones WRITING style on this thread (by the way, you misspelled it yourself), and I did not paraphrase as I was unaware of exactly how this thread would appear after posting.
Let me be the first to commend the fact that yes, a welders job is physically harder than a desk job. However, again, he is a very smart man and he CHOSE that profession. He could have easily chosen a less physically demanding job. (His current rate of pay is actually less than what he would be making if he had chosen a career involving a desk.) In my opinion, he should deserve more pay for the more dangerous job. (No, not to give to me....he gives me his HALF of the bill money to pay bills with. I never touch anything else.) Just for arguements sake, I have double the commute time in Houston traffic. My commute time alone is much more dangerous than his. Sounds like we are splitting hairs here. Pay should compensate a chosen careers' danger allocation. Not lack of being able to do something for yourself that you expect a woman to do just because you don't want to.
In any case, whatever career choice a man has made, it does not justify the simplicity in simply picking up after yourselves. Now, I am not saying wash my dishes, or my clothes, or pick up after me. The simple act of you passing through the kitchen to go to the bedroom, how about grabbing that glass you have used and drop it off in the kitchen on your way through instead of leaving it in there for me to hunt down before I wash it? Again, the example of the two dirty clothes hampers less than 5 feet from you and dropping your clothes on the floor where I must bend to pick them up in order to wash them for you? (Now mind you I have a bone disease in my lower spine, have in fact had major spinal surgery, bending is not as easy as when I was 18 and healthy!) I am talking simple basic things a 3 year old can do for himself yet a full grown man can not. Or will not would be more accurate. Because he views it as a *womans job*.
Let me take just a moment here to relate that for the VERY short time in between jobs while I was unemployed, I DID do everything at the house. I was at home, not bringing in an income. I felt it was my contribution to take care of all things domestic as at that time he WAS supporting me financially. But once I was back to work, and he was NOT financially supporting me, then no, I do not expect to have to wait on him hand and foot because of his chosen career path.
If we are both working full time jobs and he comes home to do nothing every evening and very little on the weekends other than fishing, what makes it fair that I am to spend virtually every ounce of spare time doing everything at home and not have any down time for myself? I am not entitled to have a life because I am a woman? I'm sorry but that is not right. Therefore certain sacrifices are made in the home. Everyone, especially those working full time jobs, are entitled to have down time and a life balance there of some sort. It is not all work because you are a woman. THAT kind of thinking is what makes some view this as a sexist issue.
Again, I am not saying the same situation applies to women who are home makers and do not have an outside career of thier own, rather chose to stay at home. That is a different boat altogether.
As to the reference of getting out of my 19 year marriage due to a squabble now and again? Our marriage would not have made it this long if either one of us were afraid of a squabble or two. Geesh. A good marriage is not one that just happens. This life is not about finding Mr. or Mrs. Perfect. The perfect husband or wife does not exist. It is about finding Mr. or Mrs. With Whoms Faults You Can Live With. Please, we all have faults. And any marriage lasting more than a few years will have two or three things that will always be fair game to squabble about. I am not lamenting my lo so miserable life, I am simply offering a different point of view. That's all. On the whole, I will take my husbands faults over someone else's faults that I feel I could not live with. Say...he could beat me or cheat on me or be a drug addict. Those are not traits I am willing to live with. I can handle his periodic laziness and selfishness just as he has to live with my refusal to have a home cook meal ready for him when he comes in from his job. (Especially since I get home 2 hours later than he does).
My posting was not intended to insult another poster as I agree with several of your statements. I just offered a different viewpoint.
April 8th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
LOL... oh yes, I have to add....I can not stand women who withhold sex as a punishment or a reward! Hell, there is no way i am gonna do without just cause I am ticked off at you! Now THAT is silly!!
April 8th, 2008 at 12:47 pm
Akhi....oh I forgot to address your issues,
HE makes more, as well he should. His chosen career path is more dangerous than mine.
I never said his inability to voice his views makes him wrong. Believe me, he has no problem voicing his beliefs. Nor would I want him to stifle them. He makes sure I hear him...and I in turn makes sure he hears me.
Yes, men and women have different standards of cleanliness. He wants it cleaner than what I am willing to sacrifice of my life and health to keep it. I am not the pig just for clarity here.
Somehow watching UFC on TV does not reflect his carefully planning out how to screw a 2x4 on a porch step.
Again, just a different viewpoint here, but don't get me wrong. The viewpoint was on perspectives. I don't want you to think I just sit there and wring my hands while he places his demands. Oh no, neither one of us married a yes-man. I give as good as I get.
We both only have one life to live and one chance to live it. I have no intention of sacrificing my entire life to housework. If it gets done, it gets done. If it doesn't, well there is another day. If he doesn't like my cleaning schedule, well hell, he can operate a freaking broom. My opinions were on what is expected of me because I am a woman. Not that I choose to comply with those expectations. Some things in life are constant. He will constantly leave his dirty underwear on the floor and I will constantly do the dishes when I am damb good and ready too.
I do like reading what you guys say though. Very inciteful. Makes me think the only real reason a man marries is for the sole purpose of having someone else to blame everything on and do everything for him except he can have sex with us as we aren't your mother.
April 8th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
Now Tresa writes - "I do like reading what you guys say though. Very inciteful. Makes me think the only real reason a man marries is for the sole purpose of having someone else to blame everything on and do everything for him except he can have sex with us as we aren't your mother."
Hum, seems I read somewhere else herein where you wrote "Okay, I know alot of you out there are not going to believe this, and you are going to label me a man basher (which I am not..."
So Tresa, which is it? Are you the non-man-basher you claim to be, or the man-basher your own writing exposes you as?
April 8th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
LOL....the man-bashing label was mentioned because no matter what I say, I will be accused of man-bashing as long as it is opposition to a man's point of view, HOWEVER, a man can oppose a woman's point of view and he is not perceived as a woman-basher. What is good for the goose is in fact never good for the gander.
In general, women and men see things differently. They just do. It is a fact. Women will think they are right and Men will think they are right.
Someone made the comment that they had recognized a woman had not expressed her views on this subject. Maybe they actually didn't want to hear those views. Maybe they just wanted a venting session, which should really exclude the female's point of view altogether. If that be the case, my mistake. I thought someone was wondering why a woman hadn't posted because they may be curious as to WHY they think the way they do. I simply put forth one woman's viewpoint.
What it all really boils down to is in regards to this subject, men and women will always disagree. So as mature adults, we just have to agree to disagree. Men will think like men and women like women. Sometimes they will understand each other, not that they will agree, and sometimes they will not.
I am not saying you fellas are WRONG for feeling the way that you do. You are entitled to opinions just as I am. In fact, to some extent I agree to quite a bit of it. My husband and I have different viewpoints on quite a bit, but I will defend his right to his opinions to anyone who tries to belittle him for them.
I am not offended when my husband asks me to do something for him. I am offended when he demands it or orders it. It is a simple act of kindness to speak nicely when you are requesting something from someone. I ask nicely, I expect to be asked nicely. I don't mean fall on your knees and get to begging and pretty pleasing me. Just speak to me in a generally polite way rather than speaking to me as if I were a disobediant child or a disappointment to human kind. That is disrespectful as an adult (you wouldn't want to be talked to that way) and undeserved.
Many women feel they are expected of much and appreciated for little. Not that what you are wanting them to do is actually a huge monumental feet (sp?). Just as I can read you men apparently feel the same way. Everyone feels they are giving more than they get credit for. That is the way humans are.
I recognize the differences. Not that I am in agreement with them necessarily, but I recognize they are there none the less. So if speaking in a viewpoint that opposes men in general labels me a man basher, then aren't you guys really guilty of exactly the same thing in reverse?
My viewpoints were not intended as insults or name calling (even though someone thoughtfully attacked my writing style because he was angry that I had an opposing viewpoint), but since I was basically shoved through a grinder for having the different viewpoint someone else had realized was missing from the thread, perhaps I was retailiting with like arrogance to match what was thrown at me.
Someone mentioned the sexist labels and I was injecting that, well, when you tell us it is our job because we are women, well then that is why some people see it as sexist. A lot of women I know would read this blog and get the same impression, that love and respect doesn't seem to warrant much leverage in the marriage game as long as she intends to do everything domestic, regardless of her career or his career choices. (Again, not lumping full time housewives into this equation).
They are one woman's viewpoint. It opposes what alot of you believe in. If you feel the need to execute me for my opinons, then perhaps this should not be a public forum. I opposed SOME of what you guys say, if that makes me a basher so be it. But it also makes you one. No hard feelings, but some of you were quite venement in your comments, more so then even I was.
I support equal pay for EQUAL WORK. I do not appreciate women who think they should be given the job, do half of it and get equal pay. I support child support but it should be paid by women as well as men and men have every right to play a very intrigal part in thier children's lives. Those children NEED thier fathers. I do not support those women who act in a personal vindictive way to do anything and everything they can just to hurt the man they once loved because she feels spurned. I do not support women who USE thier children to get what they want from a man both emotionally and financially. I do not support those women who feel they should not get out and get a job because they would rather find a sugar daddy to supply them with everything thier little hearts desire. I do not support women who are pampered and do not work for what they think they deserve just for the sake of being born a woman. I do not believe that women that stay at home full time while thier husbands are financially supporting them and thier children have any room to complain about doing the domestic chores for the home.
So you may see, that yes, I do agree with some of what you are saying, just not all of it. I am not a woman who has ever expected to be supported by a man. I have always wanted my own career, my own money, my own independance. I want a man in my life that is just as equally strong. (Even if we do disagree on some things). Since I am financially self sufficient, self supporting and pull my own weight and at times more, then no, I don't agree that just because I am a woman that I should be expected to do all things domestic. I have a man in my life because I love him and I want to SHARE my life with him. Not because i want to be dependant on him or answer to him. I am not subserviant to him, nor him to me. It should be more like a partnership rather than a conquest. It shouldn't be a *Who's the Boss* contest.
So at my house, the floors may not be swept. The dishes may not be done. But he will be fishing no matter what if the weather allows for it (sometimes on my dime) and i will do the things I like doing before I die and we will meet at the end of the day is a halfway messy house and depending on our moods...either talk about our days or have a squabble about what hasn't been done. (Usually when he hasn't caught any fish or I am on PMS.) Life is too short people.
April 8th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
Tresa, trying to defend her words writes -"So if speaking in a viewpoint that opposes men in general labels me a man basher, then aren't you guys really guilty of exactly the same thing in reverse? My viewpoints were not intended as insults or name calling..."
If what you say were true, you would not have written: "...the only real reason a man marries is for the sole purpose of having someone else to blame everything on and do everything for him except he can have sex with us as we aren't your mother.".
Derogatory remarks such as this are NOTHING BUT man-bashing, pure and simple. And, I doubt it's even your own reasoning. I'd bet the same such thing has been posted thousands of times on Feminist sites devoted to male-bashing.
You're well within both your right as well as within the boundaries of good reason to state your case vis-a-vi your own relationship with your husband. But, then you go and make a remark which I doubt you can point to one actual comment by any man who's posted her to support it.
Since you appear to not have actually read most of the thread, I just point out to you that thematically, it has NOT been about blaming women, but rather about men relating the many and varied things that they DO do - much of which gets zero credit as "housework".
Now, just how does that support making your regurgitated Feminist remark that, from what you’ve read, men only marry so as to have everything done for them, blame everything on someone else, and so that they can have sex with someone other than their mothers?
Please, do show how that statement has any bearing at all to the discuss, or how it can even stand as a reasonable response to any comment made.
April 8th, 2008 at 5:47 pm
I've never been to a Feminist site so I wouldn't know what they post there.
Perhaps you missed the rest of that quoted paragraph...
"but since I was basically shoved through a grinder for having the different viewpoint someone else had realized was missing from the thread, perhaps I was retailiting with like arrogance to match what was thrown at me. "
In other words, I was saying I had made that comment in retailiation once I re-read what i had written and discovered that I had not worded my comment to correctly reflect my feelings and instead struck out when I was struck upon.
Yes, derogatory comments ARE bashing, I would have to agree with you. And I apologize for offending people. But There were several derogatory remarks made about women in general. I really shouldn't have to go back and quote all of them. Several people made very good points. My original opposition was that not ALL women feel that if you are a housewife you shouldn't be doing all the domestic chores. BUT those women that do work, and carry thier fair share of work both at thier jobs and inside/outside the house (even those jobs that are labeled as *mens jobs*) should not be expected to still carry out all the domestic chores as well.
Not all women are out to marry a ATM/chore slave to take care of them because they hold the golden (enter body part here). Women were repeatedly referred to as selfish, money hungry, bitchy, lazy, self obsorbed individuals whose ability to find a husband will slowly deterioate leaving all women lonely with immaculate houses. They are not worth the companionship and are completely inefficient in doing all those silly chores. That they are encouraged to spread the misery and hire a maid with the child support checks they receive (and although I contend that those checks are not always used as they are intended to be used, I have yet to find a woman receiving child support that also has a maid), that they are basically good for wearing out your ears (which believe me, you guys say plenty we don't want to have to hear), pointing out your failures (which you do just as good a job at doing this as well), and are unwilling to post thier views on this thread because we suck at debating and basically can never come up with a good scenario as to why we should not have to ALWAYS be the one responsible for the shit detail in the home.
I gave you good solid examples of instances that i feel warrant why a woman should not always be the one to generate the domestic front. Instead of acknowledging that i may have a point, i was attacked because of they type of work I do. That i may break a nail or stab myself with a stapler. Hell, I might do that cleaning out the garage, insect proofing my acre lot, wiring new phone lines, tightening the plumbing up under the sink, or trying to move the large cement stepping stones around the yard. Not all women are lazy and refuse to do *man jobs*. But regardless we are supposed to always do all the domestics?
And to quote:
"And, of course we all know, marriage is "hard work." I don't want more hard work after a day of hard work!"
Well what makes you think we want to?
One more quote:
"So, how can anyone expect a person to work fulltime outside the home, yet come home and keep house for an entire family? This is why I always said to myself, when I finally settled down I wanted a housewife. We both can be working outside the home, somethings going to go lacking. "
No, it is not fair for one person to work full time, commute 2 1/2 hours a day, come home to do all the domestics AND spend the weekend helping out with all those invisible chores you men do. This couple chose together that she would be a housewife. That is very simple, her *job* is the house.
"My wife gave me a table saw for Christmas this year" Believe me sir, the day I got a vacume cleaner for Xmas i was a happy, happy woman.
So I lost control and snapped a saucy comment after reading what seemed like an hour of blogs doing basically nothing two thirds of the way through but making derogatory suggestions about women in general. I did acknowledge that I had said that in retaliation instead of taking the time to think about a proper response.
April 9th, 2008 at 12:36 am
I'm a single father head of household & I do it all..... No woman cleans my house, does my laundry, fix my or my childrens breakfast, lunch or dinner. No woman takes out the garbage or does my lawn & auto matinance. No woman cleans the drains or toilets in my home. Every aspect that is cited in their "studies" I am responsible for under my own roof and I do so without complaining by either myself or proxies. I'm very sure that the media is not counting people like me because it dosen't fit their timplet.
April 9th, 2008 at 6:31 am
Absolute propaganda to divide men and women
Marcy Ganz
San Diego, CA
http://crispe.org
April 9th, 2008 at 6:32 am
I know more women that are slobs
Marcy Ganz
San Diego, CA
http://crispe.org/blog
April 9th, 2008 at 11:41 am
(Yes, I know quite a few more women that are slobs too. )
If the media is so biased in thier reporting, how will we, as the public, be able to correct that? What steps need to be taken to insure that all facets are shown rather than just one side?
The reason I signed up for this newsletter to begin with was because the public in general always hears about the mothers vs dead beat dads. Rarely do you hear about those fathers that not only take care of thier part of the financial responsibilities towards thier children, but also take every means possible to involve themselves in thier lives and are often handed the boot so to speak.
My husband was one of those fathers. As soon as I took the kids home and returned, he had plans laid out in detail for what they will do the next time I pick them up. He is a fantastic father!
At one time the amount of child support he paid was EQUAL to the amount of rent + utilities we paid per month! If he were living on his own, there would have been no way he could have afforded a place to live, a vehicle note, the applicable mandatory insurances (kids health & vehicle) etc. AND pay child support at the same time.
I never gave birth (by choice) so it was not like I had a purpose to look for items reported in regards to this subject BUT once I got with my husband, I personally lived in the man's point of view regarding this subject, and it was then that I realized that in general, the man's side is often left out of the equation.
Yes, there are dead beat dad's out there, but there are dead beat mothers as well. But you never hear of them. You do not hear of the mothers that are not doing thier jobs as parents, that are not using the child support monies for the purpose they are intended for, that are constantly acting vindictive and hateful towards the men (and often THROUGH thier children) just because they can.
What is it that needs to take place to ensure that these types of studies include both sides? Why isn't anyone taking note of this during these studies, and why isn't the media bringing that to people's attentions? Please, don't say it is because women generate all these studies because you know women do not make up the all of the work force. Why are the men involved in these studies just remaining mute on the subject? It seems these studies should be rendered inconclusive and all sides taken into account for.
April 10th, 2008 at 9:24 am
Tresa – I wasn’t trying to insult your writing style as much as explain that it is difficult to read something that has no breaks in it (I COULD have called you, but deliberately did NOT, an idiot or stupid or uneducated and that WOULD have been an insult). Constructive criticisms are NOT insults. Insults are insults. Know the difference.
Breaks give the eyes a chance to relax for a second and if I am gonna respond to what you wrote, it is easier if your ideas are delineated. I never said (nor attempted to imply) anything negative about you (don't fall for the phantom insult-one that isn't there). And the comment might have been addressing anyone else who writes paragraphs that run on and on without delineation between ideas. Since we men are so often accused of insulting when we are not, sometimes we will insult deliberately to make the point that since we are being accused of insulting anyway, we might as well be guilty of what we are being accused of (passive-aggressive).
Tresa - If the media is so biased in thier reporting, how will we, as the public, be able to correct that? What steps need to be taken to insure that all facets are shown rather than just one side?
We call em on their sexist tripe wherever we see it. We read Glenn Sacks and we share Glenn Sacks (who dares to allow men to have a voice).
April 10th, 2008 at 9:36 am
Tresa – “The reason I signed up for this newsletter to begin with was because the public in general always hears about the mothers vs dead beat dads. Rarely do you hear about those fathers that not only take care of thier part of the financial responsibilities towards thier children, but also take every means possible to involve themselves in thier lives and are often handed the boot so to speak.”
Exactly our sentiments. Our views are so infrequently heard (or when they are they are so thoroughly ridiculed and not taken seriously) that it makes us quite literally sick (mentally and physically and many of us men commit suicide over it).
This is why I do not think your husband necessarily has the ability to speak his side in an effective manner. Forgive me if it sounds like I am judging you, but it sounds like you and your husband would be a little happier with each other if you would get past some of the passive-aggressive thing (I bet that if you could refrain from calling him lazy that he could not be so hard on you about the house cleaning)….
And I bet if you recognized that he might NOT want to admit how tiring his job can be (or how important it is for him to be rested each day), he might be willing to be a little more proactive around the house (but I still do not think that a collection of glasses around the house is as big a deal as some would make it out to be-perhaps if you would cut him a little slack, he might do the same (you two might want to talk about these issues without blaming and that might be hard, but it might be good for you As you’ve noted, the man’s viewpoint is rarely expressed in media or in academia and thus he might feel you do not respect his viewpoint – especially if you get snide with him as you did here with us.
I was an active feminist for two decades or more (still am in some ways), but i dare to be a masculist as well (this is not encouraged by most). I was dishes, I vaccuum, I do laundry. I do most any task that is often labeled a woman's task, but i also do many of the 'inviisble' man's work as well. I kill hornets and spiders and haul off carcasses the cats have dragged in. I change the oil and other maintenance. etc etc etc (most of which these studies refuse to acknowledge). SO, yeah, I take real umbrage when someone tries to suggest I or any man is lazy.
I was injured and disabled working as en electrician and even though i paid into social security for over twenty years, I should expect to go without pay for at least two years before I can collect any disablity payments from them (congress, demublicans and well as republocrats, is busy spending our social security money on the deficit so i can go homeless without disability benefits-without my wife's support I would have been homeless for quite soem time now). This is a men's rights issue cuz if men do more dangerous work they are more likely to be injured on the job.
April 10th, 2008 at 9:41 am
Tresa – “Let me be the first to commend the fact that yes, a welders job is physically harder than a desk job. However, again, he is a very smart man and he CHOSE that profession. He could have easily chosen a less physically demanding job. (His current rate of pay is actually less than what he would be making if he had chosen a career involving a desk.) In my opinion, he should deserve more pay for the more dangerous job.”
First, we call that blaming the victim (blaming a person for their vocational choices) which is not okay if you do it to women, but probably okay if you do it to men. It takes a special kind of person to be welder. It takes a real risk taker to be a welder. If your husband didn’t do this job and if other husbands like him did not do this job, it wouldn’t get done – then we wouldn’t have bridges or skyscrapers or cars or bikes (yup, even bikes are welded together.
This guy works with slag all day at operating temperatures as hot as the surface of the sun and he probably doesn’t care if the laundry is in the hampers or not as long as his clothes are washed occasionally (and he CAN do it himself if need be). If he wasn’t married to you, he might not even own a hamper and I bet he wouldn’t get diseased from it. He might just have a garbage can that HE made himself that he threw 60 – 80 % of his clothes in the rest just fell by the wayside and no disease would spread. The reason to get the clothes in the hamper is to make it easier for you to pick them up (due to your medical condition), but then again that could easily wait until laundry day.
SO now we agree that these dangerous jobs are undervalued by society despite how necessary they are (and feminists are fuming about not getting equal pay for equal work). I guess we agree that equal work is equally dangerous. Not sure this has been mentioend enough, but 19 of 20 workplace deaths are of men (while women claim to do equal work).
April 10th, 2008 at 9:59 am
- “I am not offended when my husband asks me to do something for him. I am offended when he demands it or orders it. It is a simple act of kindness to speak nicely when you are requesting something from someone. I ask nicely, I expect to be asked nicely. I don't mean fall on your knees and get to begging and pretty pleasing me. Just speak to me in a generally polite way rather than speaking to me as if I were a disobediant child or a disappointment to human kind. That is disrespectful as an adult (you wouldn't want to be talked to that way) and undeserved.”
You should have heard how my ex wife used to speak to me (before we were divorced she screamed at me about two hundreds times that she wanted a divorce-I caught on and I moved on-and then she accused me of leaving her). That is why she is EX (but I never could figure out why she had to yell at me-if she wanted a divorce, all she had to do was ask nicely or go to the lawyer – no need to threaten me or harass me).
If you two are willing to discuss these things it might help. He might not want to talk about them, though. I went to couples therapy with my ex-wife and it did no good. As soon as we got out the door, she went back to talking to me in a manner that I wouldn’t tolerate (very disrespectful and she seemd to think that I would tolerate being yelled at).
Just cuz a man doesn’t want to talk about it, doesn’t mean he isn’t willing to improve. But many of us realize that talk is cheap; proof is in the proverbial pudding. Respect is a two way street. And you need to be as respectful of him as you want him to be for you (since we all agree that the men’s side is not well understood out in society, it might be hard to learn how to be respectful of him). You deserve respect even if you offer him none (but then he should get out as soon as possible). UNtil you understand his side, I cannot imagine how you could offer him respect (and that is why we have spoken about our needs and our side-cuz it is not well represented in the rest of society.
“no, I don't agree that just because I am a woman that I should be expected to do all things domestic”
No one here said that to you. And like we said, much of what is defined as domestic hasn’t been included in the definition (the men’s portion has been excluded from the list of domestic chores, so why should we do any of our chores if they are gonna be discounted or ignored?).
April 10th, 2008 at 10:13 am
Tresa –"What is it that needs to take place to ensure that these types of studies include both sides? Why isn't anyone taking note of this during these studies, and why isn't the media bringing that to people's attentions? Please, don't say it is because women generate all these studies because you know women do not make up the all of the work force. Why are the men involved in these studies just remaining mute on the subject? It seems these studies should be rendered inconclusive and all sides taken into account for."
Before a problem can be solved, it first must be defined. Men and women need to recognize that men’s issues are not taken seriously (it has taken years to explain this to my feminist scholar mother - she also thought it was okay to yell at me). My mother is a women’s historian and is not especially adept empathizing with the male viewpoint (we men sometimes dare have a unique viewpoint from women).
There will be no one solution and MRA's are no more likely to agree about how things should be done than feminists can agree about how society should be organized. The only way to understand how we got here is to study. Men certainly have bought into feminism in a big way (especially in Hollywood). Men have enacted the vast majority of feminist legislation (and feminists claim men refuse to represent them).
Stand up and be counted among those who will not tolerate total dismissal of the male viewpoint (and expect to be attacked by the mob-we MRA's are attacked every day for voicing our opinions regardless of how nicely we may try-which is why so many havent bothered to be nice cuz we get attacked anyway). We males have a viewpoint and we dare to express it. You support men’s right to express their views (bless you-insert your own deity or spiritual concept).
April 10th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Both sides always deserve a chance to express themselves. People don't always have to agree, (agree to disagree) but should be extended the respect to express themselves regardless. It should be fair no matter what the cause or group of people involved. Pro-lifers and Pro-choicers each have a chance to address thier issues. They don't agree (obviously) but none the less, they are both heard.
I have emailed the two gentlemen responsible for the said study asking them about the chores both included and those not included in the study and attached a rather massive list compiled of all the invisible chores you fellas have brought to my attention. (I even added a few of my own that I know for instance that my husband does that I do not help with such as the water well and septic maintenance).
I have kindly asked for a response so I wonder if I will get one.
April 10th, 2008 at 1:20 pm
Awesome, Tresa thanks I hope you share this with us if they respond, but I am not counting on their reply.
b
April 10th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
And by the way, I want to add that yes, men do have a very uniquely different take on things. As silly as it sounds, one of my favorite things about being married and having a husband is that it gives me a free card to ask him what I refer to as *stupid girl questions*.
Now I am too embarassed to actually TELL any of you what these stupid girl questions are, but rest assured, they were things I wondered about as a girl, or as a young woman, about guys in general. How they thought about certain things. How they managed to do things differently than girls would.
And my husband, wonderful sport that he is, will usually respond in two different ways. He will either have a twinkle of laughter in his eyes just before he lets out a belly full of hee haws at me. Or he will get this screwy look on his face as he says "You thought we did WHAT?". In any case he will always be honest with me and give me a direct answer, so he is a VERY good sport about it LOL!!
April 10th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
Well, I got a reply....
How do you want this information? It is rather lengthy. I have my email and my attachment and his response. He also sent me the representative study and that is the lengthy part. I haven't had a chance to try to read the study, (it is 33 pages long).
April 11th, 2008 at 9:41 am
Good for you Tresa and thanks for participating in the discussion. I really did not intend to be offensive and appreciate your candor.
I do not agree that because you commute is farther than your husband that therefore your job is as dangerous as his (your commute may be more dangerous, but that does not make your job as dangerous as a truck drivers who would drive for eight to twelve hours? That does not make your job as dangerous as a welders’ job. It merely means your commute is as dangerous as someone who commutes in other major cities of comparable size and duration.
I do not want to blame the victim, but just as he could select a different vocation, you could also select another job that has a shorter commute. We all have choices (I am sure you stay where you are sound reasons). A job closer to home might pay less, might have less seniority or might have less security (eg a less solid company that might have layoffs, etc). The two of you might move to a place half way between your two jobs (move is a four letter word and is expensive and hard work, I know. I used to live in Southern California with my present wife and we know about long commutes, the danger and the stress that they create.
I also appreciate your taking the time to do something about this issue (we all must do something and your action was original - thus your presence is important and not unrecognized). Thanks
I wrote an email to every researcher listed on this web site suggesting that they stop ignoring misandry, stop promoting it, and start researching it. I let em know that there are folks (men and women) who are tired of the same old negative stereotypes of men. I pointed em to this blog and included input gathered from everyone who posted.
http://www.contemporaryfamilies.org/subtemplate.php?t=briefingPapers&ext=menshousework
Council on Contemporary Families
April 11th, 2008 at 11:32 am
I'm glad to be of some help. As I mentioned before, I really do think all sides should be heard. Not everyone is going to agree with each other but it is only fair. The big picture is hard to see if pieces are missing
I must be honest and admit that this scenario has given me cause to stop and think about a few things myself from a different angle. I would be lying if I pretended that it did not.
It is neither easy nor comfortable for us both to view things from the opposites viewpoint. I think though, if more people tried it, men and women alike, the sexes may find they get along better for it.
April 12th, 2008 at 1:40 am
Men should stop marrying until there is equality before the law.
A man's freedom, children, home, and income, can be taken away with a simple phone call to 911 by his wife or girlfriend. No evidence is required. At trial, a man stands a 50% chance of being convicted of a criminal domestic offence without evidence. NOT EVEN ONE of the leaders of the “free-world” has this power over any citizen, yet every woman in a domestic relationship has this power.
Until the law recognizes equal rights for men and fathers in domestic relationships it is immoral to marry because, by marrying, a man is sanctioning the state’s decision to take away his right to the presumption of innocence. The presumption of innocence is a basic human right which is fundamental to the preservation of a civil society. There can be no long-term civil society, and therefore no legitimate marriage, without the presumption of innocence. We should not support the institution of marriage until it can be legitimately resurrected by re-affirming the presumption of innocence. The two issues are inexorably linked.
If only one person in the world were given the right to accuse another without evidence, that would be one too many!
April 14th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
You don't have to be married to have that happen. Marriage isn't the problem. You can be unmarried, just a boyfriend, just visiting - not even living with her and still, if the woman calls 911 during a domestic violence report, the majority of the time it is the man that will be visiting the jail that evening.
The problem isn't whether or not to be married, it is that men are automatically viewed as the bad guy and the first action rendered is usually towards the men.
My husband was put through the Attorney General fun house as well as the Police Party routine and he and his ex were never *married*. They had 3 sons out of wedlock. He went through all of this havoc without ever being married. Court, child support, visitations, all of his parental rights were challenged each and every step of the way. All of his rights stepped upon. But none of it had anything to do with him being married or not.
Trying to scare a man out of marriage isn't going to help this situation any more than telling him to never have sex. And THAT ain't never gonna happen! Sex is one of the things that makes life worth living for!
Married or not, people are going to have sex, children will be born, and child support will be paid (whether or not he lives with his children or not). You don't have to be married to have sex or be in a domestic relationship. Not being married in this situation isn't going to protect him either. He will still stand to lose his freedom, children, home and income.
The law does need to recognize mens rights are being violated though. It does need to be addressed and contended with.
Women are violent too. They need to be held accountable for thier actions.
Women need to be responsible for the other half of the child's finanical well being as well. (Child support IS supposed to be used for HALF of the child's financial needs...not ALL of them, AND the mothers, AND her boyfriends etc.) She should be expected to tell HOW she applies those funds as well. The father should have the right to know his child support money is going for the childs needs and not her beer.
We as a society have been caught up for so long in the *save the women's efforts* over the years, that it has spilled over and crushed all of the mens rights. It may have started as an issue of helping women out of violent situations and helping them get the things they need to raise the children. But it has turned into a murderous rampage of mens rights. What may have been intended as an equalizer has exploded and capsized the boat of fairness. Now men are sinking and drowning and no one is hearing thier cries for justice.
We need to stop the playground bully and concentrate on a way to make things fair. A voice for both sides that is willing to LISTEN to the other side and try to be fair.
April 14th, 2008 at 9:00 pm
Men should not be expected to give up sex or having children, however they must understand and respond to the realities of today in North America.
Build a strong supportive relationship with a woman by all means. But do not marry or move in with her. If you do, in essence she owns you by law. That is what it means when one person can eliminate the freedoms and rights of another by making a phone call.
If a man today wants children, he should do so planning to be a single parent from the start. Be as involved as she lets you be from the beginning. Establish shared parenting from the beginning. If she refuses to give you parental rights when the child is born, take it to court. But under no condition should a man today live under the same roof as a woman. Women change, as do men. However if a woman gets angry enough while you are living with her you are done, because as a man you have no rights and no recourse. That is slavery.
Men and women should both work to change this injustice, but until it is changed men should not live with women under any circumstance. Live separately with respect. It is the only way to be equal before the law today. A slave can never have a relationship of equals with his master.
April 14th, 2008 at 9:16 pm
Furthermore ....
Men should take full responsibility and control of their reproductive future. The condom is the only birth control mechanism that a man can control. This is not very satisfying or fulfilling.
A young man should begin storing sperm in sperm banks as early as possible. Store lots of it in several different banks... then get a vasectomy. It is the only way for a man to prevent himself from being targeted, and terrorized, by a malicious young female.
One day there may be better alternatives for male birth control, in the form of pills, injections or other devices, as there are for women. Until then, appropriate action is required.
April 16th, 2008 at 10:36 am
Again, you don't have to be married, or even living together to make that 911 call. I've seen it a dozen times. Marriage doesn't have anything to do with it really. Men's rights are violated regardless.
Speaking from my own personal exposure throughout my life, (I am an average middle aged woman), more than half of the children I know were born out of wedlock. (I am not taking sides at all, merely speaking from observation only)
And of the others born within a marriage or domestic partnership, only 2 of those children live with both sets of parents.
Of all of these couples, only 2 men pay thier child support or make an effort to have anything to do with thier children. (One of those two is my husband.)
There is only one man that is not allowed to see his child without supervision due to violence issues. He does not pay child support and will not take the steps needed to see his child with supervision. He IS violent, I have seen his behaviour myself, otherwise I would question the accusations against him.
I am not sure about other states or thier laws governing domestic relationships, but here in Texas marriage is not the problem since most never marry. Living together, well its hard when you are *in LUV* and want to fall asleep staring into each other's corneas not to want to spend every waking moment or every night in the arms of your sweetheart. So I doubt if NOT shacking up is going to take place either.
The 911 calls are made even when couples don't live together. If we want to get to the root of the problem, then we must start at the core, which is defending men's rights. Boycotting marriage is not going to be effective. Most men I know run from the alter anyways and it hasn't helped the issue so far.
First off our legal system needs to be updated to include the protection of the mens rights. Investigations need to be conducted on behalf of BOTH parties. We need to protect those women who ARE in danger AND protect men from losing all thier rights as a father and as an individual. By concentrating on the core problem, there MAY be a chance to evenly distribute the needed justice eventually.
Fiddling around telling individuals what they must do or not do or how to live thier lives is going to do nothing but cause confusion and spur on mass hysteria. No one wants to be told how to live thier lives (ie: DON'T get married!!!!) so people aren't going to pay attention to that. They are going to shrug thier shoulders and say "Whatever..." and move on in with thier LUV interest. (No one willingly goes into slavery and I've yet to meet a person that thought moving in with someone was going to lead to that.)
What would be the first step to take in seeing these laws changed? Looking into this question will be actively acting on the desire to actually DO something about the problem.
Identify the problem, (defending men's rights) search for a resolution, (laws must be changed) ACT on bringing that resolution to life. (What do we need to do to make a change in the laws?)
April 17th, 2008 at 9:19 am
Tresa says – “The 911 calls are made even when couples don't live together. If we want to get to the root of the problem, then we must start at the core, which is defending men's rights. Boycotting marriage is not going to be effective. Most men I know run from the alter anyways and it hasn't helped the issue so far.”
Men run from the altar and women select NOT to marry. They cannot find a good man or they wish to be empowered. What Etienne calls a “boycott”, you call “running from the altar”. No offense here Tresa, but the men you know probably do not seem to know about the formal men’s right’s movement (MRM) and yet they know enough to know that marriage is stacked against them. Although you use language like “run from the altar” and feminists use language like, “Fear of commitment”, both statements refuse to admit that these men are making active choices, not passive ones, even if they are not capable of verbalizing them in academic or couching them fancy language.
In the town in which I live our local paper had an article whose heading was, ‘What if you called 911 and No One Came’. On page 4 where the article picks up after the page 1 eye popping title and a few misleading statements, it was declared that crime was down locally approx. 35%, but the police union and others were trying to hire MORE officers. For some, it is ,seemingly, a ploy to keep the number of officers steady at a time of economic instability and recession when there would otherwise be to cutbacks on the number of officers. Others clearly go for the fear mongering and the hysteria and the whole police state thingie. So while thy put up signs all around town in people’s yards that say, “Support the Police”, I want to alter their signs to read, “Support the Police State”. We all know those exrtra officers wont be arresting anywhere near as many women as men (and don't try to blame the victim for that either).
Now, getting to the root of the problem as suggested, is false accusations and false 911 calls. Let’s be realistic. Police spend TOO much time responding to 911 calls for crimes that are not real crimes (and people who make false reports to the police ). How could crime be down 35% and we not have enough police (there might not have been enough police to begin with-but why wasn’t that reported in the past?)? Every time a woman makes a false claim of domestic abuse or other fasle crime claim to the emergency services, 911 department, she is taking up police resources that otherwise could be chasing a real crime.
The root of the problem is out and out ignoring the constitution in the case of men’ right’s in favor of women (and especially in favor of their right to make false accusation without responsibility). What if women who made false domestic abuse claims and other lies were arrested and charged with perjury? The police might eventually have time to chase the REAL criminals and some of the criminals who were being ignored (perjurers) would begin to be taken off the streets.
When men are treated disproportionately badly in marriage, we should expect them to boycott marriage in a big way even if they do not describe their actions in flowery esoteric speech. When child support is out of whack with people’s true ability to pay, we should also expect them to avoid this responsibility anyway.
You say you see men’s point of view and you have improved a lot, but you still seem have an axe to grind as elaborated in your language which gives your point of view (backed up indelibly by the language used by the feminists-if not out and out from the liberal academic point of view, from the media’s watered down gynocrentric, misandric viewpoint.
When a man and woman get married, after a while they decide they want to have a baby. They do not want anyone to raise that baby but one of them two. He is not as enamored with the idea of raising a child (our society would make fun of him in how many different ways?) and she has always wanted to raise her own child. So they agree that while losing her income while raising the child would be difficult, it is a sacrifice they are both willing to make for each other and for the sake of the kids. Both people made a choice.
Now, years later when she decides she is tired of him after she has had it in drummed into her head from the misandric media millions of times that all men are lazy (sound familiar?) and that all men are bad (except brad Pitt and a few other men that are already taken or gay-heterophobia in a big way). 80%+ of divorces are chosen by the WIFE (but we should not blame the women, only the men). Upon hearing that the wife is not happy with decisions she and he made freely, under no duress, he may decide that he no longer wants to go along with the original agreement. She has broken her pledge even though he still went to work every day. Even though she treats him as if he had no individual needs (she is totally concerned with her own needs and tends to ignore his), he didn’t up and abandon her.
When the court steps in to decide how to handle the divorce, in most cases, the court tries to FORCE the husband to stick with the agreement he and she made voluntarily. Even though she has broken her side of the agreement, he is still forced by the courts to pay for her and rarely get to see his children(she has primary custody and he can see, maybe, on weekends-courts enforce child support, they rarely or belatedly force visitation. An agreement made between two people no longer should be forced to stay in place if one of the two has broken the agreement.
Why doesn’t she go out and get a job and support him to raise the kids. If she cannot do that on one job, she could get two jobs. If she needs to get three jobs to support them, that then is what the courts ought to force her to do. She shouldn’t be allowed to work fewer hours or change jobs to one that is more fulfilling if it pays less (some men dare to want to work more fulfilling jobs but are not allowed to cuz child support is rarely lowered even when a man makes less). If she cannot support the family on her one, two, or three jobs, she should be thrown in jail, have her license taken away (which can get her taken to jail) and have her professional licenses taken away (which can also have her taken to jail for working professionally without a license).
Ju gotta long way ta’ go to be seein’ da menz’ poin’ a view.
It seems like you’ve been living off’ a misandry, misandry and nothin’ but misandry for far too long. Perhaps you could diversify your consumption (not by adopting a diet of nisogyny, that would be equally bad). Try a steady diet of men’s rights to balance out the daily doses misandry that comes with most versions of women’s right’s. If you listen long enough, MOST men want to protect and love women (and if you listen long enough, while most women want to protect men, they also are eager to lock large large numbers of them in cages and see nothing hypocritical about that). And the men who are egaer to lock large large number os men in jail, we cal them manginas (men who have no respect for men or men's rights)...Feel free to shrare your definition.
When men finally stand up and speak for themselves, many folks try to shout us down, tellin' us we sound angry (implying - not directly telling us - that we have no right to be angry). WRONG. We have plenty of right to be angry. We should avoid hate and we should do what we can to dissipate our anger, but we have every right to angry when we have been mistreated.
April 17th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
I never said I saw mens viewpoint completely, just that I am willing to at least listen to it. And sometimes I will agree and sometimes not. Sometimes I can understand a point they have made and that makes me think of a topic from a different light. That does not necessarily mean I will agree with all aspects of that view. But by listening, it does cause me to pause and mentally play put the shoe on the other foot and I will understand something differently than I would have otherwise.
You are correct in one thing, I have been raised in a society that enables the media to report only certain things. That will leave my exposure limited. I am afterall a woman who does have a woman's point of view. I do make the effort to understand you men, but sometimes feel like the effort is not made both ways. It can not be totally all the woman's view, but neither can it be totally all the men's view either.
The reference in men running from the altar, that is the way I have always heard the phrase said. I myself was the one pushing off marriage. I lived with my husband for 10 years before we married, we have been married now for 9. It was me that wasn't in a hurry to get married, not him. And I think I am the only one that I know where the tables were turned like that. It was not about my being in power in the relationship, or my inability to find a man and/or be in power of him. It was more about my not wanting to be overpowered and losing my identity as an individual because I chose to share my life with a man. I view marriage as a partnership, not an ownership. I didn't want to *own* my husband and on the same foot I didn't want to *be owned* if that makes any sense.
It just seems that these laws were put into place to begin with due to enough people speaking out, despite ridicule and something was done about it. So to me it seems it would work again.
I can fully sympathize with any man joining a conversation that is comprised of a slew of angry women now. That is for sure! This blog (or whatever you call it,) is like a hornet's nest. You fear to say something lest you get swarmed for it. But somehow I get the feeling that anger and hostility does not necessarily produce much of a solution. It can sure feed on itself though and grow intensely. It is hard to be calm and assertive when you are angry. I have a hard time doing it and often have to force myself to regain composure. But I seem to get more bang for my buck if I can manage to do that. People will listen to me more if I am calm and try to focus whereas if I am hell bent on blowing up, not many people really hear what I am saying as they just want to get the hell away from me.
Quote "What if women who made false domestic abuse claims and other lies were arrested and charged with perjury? "
I think this is a VERY good idea. That would make them be accountable for thier actions. It would also stop wasting my tax dollars to pay police to answer false calls. I actually got into a bitter argument over this exact thing with a family member several years ago.
In the same avenue though, although I do agree that false 911 calls should be delt with in this way, you also can not refuse the thought of an officer answering a valid 911 call in which there HAS been a case of domestic violence and there IS evidence that an abusive act has been committed. I will say here though, the lines are very bleak and weak as to what exactly should be considered an act of abuse that warrants immediate help from an outside force.
And just as there are many badly treated men in a marriage, there are also valid badly treated women. I don't think it is one more than the other, just that we the public don't hear about the other. You hear about the battered woman, but no one hears about the battered man. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but we don't hear about it in the media.
I know all about how child support is out of whack. There are some really big problems in the system. And it IS all geared towards the women. I agree on this. There needs to be a massive reform of how to handle this problem. But it is going to take alot of noise making to get anyone to listen.
I don't think that I have an ax to grind, but everyone needs to remember that there are always TWO sides to every story. One side can not be right 100% of the time. I never really thought about how much the media does NOT report on before. But I can see now that there is quite a bit it leaves out.
I would not be interested in pulling ALL rights for the woman's side, nor would I be interested in pulling ALL rights for the mens side. But if somehow a medium could be established, that would be what I would hope for. I guess since I am not as educated as some well worded men here, I lack the words or ability to place what I mean down on paper.
There needs to be a check point system in place I guess. I know I am not explaining myself very well, but it seems there should be a middle ground in which solutions could be worked on. No, not everyone is going to be happy with the outcome, but at least it would be an effort to distinguish exactly what would constitute abuse. A guideline so to speak.
Him coming home in a bad mood and bitching at you for something or she has had a bad day and starts bitching at him as soon as he gets home, although words and phrases may be used that some would deem abusive, to me, that is not abuse. That is venting. Sometimes it esculates into a massive screaming fight. I still don't see that as abuse. There is no need to call 911 for this shit. This is just stupid. Blow off some steam and that is the end of it.
BUT when one or the other party takes it to another level that includes physically harming the other (doesn't matter which sex is doing the harming) THAT is abusive. And ideally the abused person needs to leave the relationship.
Again, my opinions are based solely on what I have personally experienced or seen my family or freinds experience in my lifetime. That by no stretch does it mean I know everything. This is just on what I personally have been witness to.
A man can just as easily abandon his wife and children. For whatever reason he finds he no longer wishes to be part of a marriage or a family unit. Perhaps he decides that returning to the single life is much more suited to him than remaining in a marriage. Women get abandoned just as much as men do. They are taking chances when they decide to get married as well.
Now, some of the laws I don't agree with. I think this is what you people are standing up for. I do not believe in alimony. (Texas is a non-alimony state.) I don't believe in she gets everything and he has to start all over again from the beginning with nothing. I don't think child support should be paid by one parent alone. And I don't think that the amount of child support to be paid should be so exorborant that he can not afford to support himself. In some instances I have seen what seems like okay, these two people split up and she is entitled to live her life from that point forward but his duty is to basically not have a life after her but to instead contribute the majority of his income to her and the kids well being. Kind of puts a damper on him being able to find another woman better suited for him and starting a family with her.
I guess in the famous words "Can't we all just get along?" ....ummm...nope apparently not. One could hope for that though, couldn't we?
I still think some very valid complaints are on the table and I also still think that law reform would be the place to start.
By the way Akhi, thank you for not decapitating me! (Now I have to go look up the definitions of misandry and nisogyny.)
April 17th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
Geez, Louise! This thread is way back on the list now, but
Tresa,
"I guess since I am not as educated as some well worded men here, I lack the words or ability to place what I mean down on paper."
Don't sell yourself short! Your last post was excellent, and I have enjoyed seeing you develop your position -- on both sides of the gender issues. You are turning into one of my favorite, and most interesting, posters here, even though we diverge on certain things. Your openness and willingness to thoughtfully re-evaluate your position based on new information, while not slavishly going along with everything presented, is rare -- and very refreshing.
Keep posting, please!
April 21st, 2008 at 8:31 am
For too long we had a 'Battle of the Sexes'; many men and some women didn’t want to see women' side and still many men (& many women) now do not want to see men's side. Understanding our own gender and the other gender would seem to be needed in order to create greater harmony among the TWO genders.
In order for women's side to be heard, many of us read whole books on women's stories and outlooks, not mere definitions (not to criticize as much as to encourage). I doubt that there are very many men who post here who haven’t read books on women's issues and yet it is not too easy to find a woman or a man out in public who have read a book or books about men's issues or men's rights.
I asked my wife to read a book for me (it must sound awful, a man asking a woman to read a book, next thing you know..). It took my wife over six months to read the first book listed below (clearly not a high priority for her –it took her six months to even begin reading it and another six months to read it). The book would explain why I found so much of what she watched on TV to be offensive). I am pretty sure she has not read the 2nd book on the list. Understanding your man would seem to be as important for him to understand you. These books will help, I think, because we are all influenced by the culture that surrounds us whether we agree with the dominant culture or not (and it is debatable if there be one single dominant culture or multiple sub-dominant cultures all vying for supremacy, all hoping to be taken seriously-each listening to the others and trying to promote itself over the others...and to add to the confusion, many folks do not fit neatly into any one sub-group, they overlap subgroups, each trying to influence multiple sub-groups ......
Oh, and I see no need to decapitate as long as I have not been falsely accused of attacking. When I attack, it will be much more obvious and for just cause. We are not vindictive, insecure puppies, we are educated (either formally or via a lifetime of experience) men and women tired of women and men demanding equality for women, but instead expecting SPECIAL treatment for women and often ill treatment for men. That is what is known as a double standard which feminism supposedly was about eliminating, but, in fact, feminism put in place more double standards than seemed to exist previously.
Spreading Misandry: The Teaching of Contempt for Men in Popular Culture
http://www.amazon.com/Spreading-Misandry-Teaching-Contempt-Popular/dp/0773530991
Legalizing Misandry: From Public Shame to Systemic Discrimination Against Men
http://www.amazon.com/Legalizing-Misandry-Systemic-Discrimination-Against/dp/0773528628/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_k2a_1_txt/105-8779376-1518046?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-2&pf_rd_r=0TF26B8QC7TJCA282040&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=304485601&pf_rd_i=0773530991