Glenn Discusses Saddleback Forum--Anybody Guess Which Key Issue Was Missing?
August 17th, 2008 by Glenn Sacks, MA for Fathers & Families
I appeared on Al Jazeera Saturday evening to discuss the Saddleback Civil Forum, where both presidential candidates vied for the Christian vote in a televised two-hour forum at the Saddleback Church in Orange County, California.
I thought both candidates came off well. McCain was, if you like him, blunt and direct. If you don't, he was simplistic and moralistic.
Obama was, if you like him, philosophical and thoughtful. If you don't, he was wishy-washy and evasive.
Obama has a very difficult row to hoe with Christian conservatives. Much of the Democratic Party support comes from liberal women's activists/feminists, and Obama is understandably hesitant to cross them on what is perhaps their most emotional and important issue -- abortion.
I suppose he is throwing conservative Christians a bone by opposing gay marriage, which probably does annoy some Democratic Party stalwarts.
A few of my comments can be seen on the Al Jazeera website here or on the Media with Conscience website here.
I was disappointed and surprised that evangelist Rick Warren, who asked an hour's worth of questions to each candidate, did not mention family breakdown and divorce. If there is any "moral" issue for our time, it is the breakdown of the family and the way millions of children are being separated from the fathers they love and need. There was no mention of this though, and the only discussion about marriage was the damn gay marriage sideshow.
I also believe that Saturday's events represent yet another failure of the fatherhood movement. Warren should have been under pressure to raise this issue, but he obviously wasn't.
And why couldn't there have been a pro-fatherhood act of civil disobedience there? Or even simply one divorced dad/activist in the audience standing up during the debate and shouting at Warren about how he has been separated from his children? Yes, it would be somewhat rude, but it would raise the issue in the national media and generate a round of buzz.
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August 17th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
Or even simply one divorced dad/activist in the audience standing up during the debate and shouting at Warren about how he has been separated from his children? Yes, it would be somewhat rude, but it would raise the issue in the national media and generate a round of buzz.
I understand you would like to see father's issues get the attention they need and deserve but I'm not sure shouting remarks at Warren would be such a great idea because of the undoubtedly negative spin that would be put on it. It would be used as "proof" that FRAs are crazy. But your concern is valid.
August 17th, 2008 at 6:20 pm
It just proves the complete lack of representation men and fathers have across politics, media and society as a whole.
Right wing or left wing, democrat or republican, christian or athiest - very few of them even consider men's issues let alone want to do anything about them.
August 17th, 2008 at 6:45 pm
And we only have ourselves to blame because we do not organize and count on somebody else to do it for us. Until we become a POLITICAL movement raising money and awareness we will fail. Our fathers before us failed and now we are failing so it will land on our sons to fix this problem.
August 17th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
Rick Warren and most other "Evangelists" are just like the politicians themselves. They are a "for profit" business. Abortion is always the "go to" topic. Father's rights are not the money making topics for politicians or evangelists. Scaring the bejesus out of folks is a sure way to generate a profit, and the abortion debate fuels the fire. The problem is, and probably always will be that society as a whole just accepts the status quo, that fathers are not needed to raise kids, and once a woman has birthed a child, daddy is of no more use except to adhere to the "financial obligation" of the children. Evangelists typically denounce divorce, but I have seen so many cases where once the divorce is over, the woe is she attitude takes over. These Presidential candidates could care less about the mens rights movement. The overall acceptance of the family laws of this country as they stand is absurd. It will probably get worse. As long as the pandering to these "feel good" ideals continue, nothing will change. I think the gender divide in this country is even, or greater than the racial divide, with the biased against men being dominate.
August 17th, 2008 at 7:08 pm
I still have tons of faith in the Marriage/sperm strike, give it time people, be patient, we can really use the "baby rabies" that women seem to get as a very effective defence against the system.
August 17th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
There were a few of us from F4J-LA outside the Saddleback venue with politely worded signs, but that was (obviously) not as effective as we would have liked...
August 17th, 2008 at 10:30 pm
"And why couldn't there have been a pro-fatherhood act of civil disobedience there? "
I agree that this was a huge missed opportunity for fathers.
I further think that there is only one man in America right now with the needed skills and connections to organize a pro-fatherhood act of civil disobedience on a scale sure to generate media buzz,.
How about it Glenn?
August 17th, 2008 at 10:50 pm
i'm wondering if or when it will ever be apart of the political discussion...women/feminists make abortion apart of the campaign...
August 17th, 2008 at 11:29 pm
"And why couldn't there have been a pro-fatherhood act of civil disobedience there? Or even simply one divorced dad/activist in the audience standing up during the debate and shouting at Warren about how he has been separated from his children?"
Glenn:
You should hang out with us. We were outside and couldn't get it. I personally wasn't there, but I got a first hand report from the scene from a Father's activist who was there (with other Father's activists). They were all a part of our local Father's activism. Youbetcha we had signs, and handed out flyers. But it sounded like lots of folks were there exercising their free speech rights.
August 17th, 2008 at 11:30 pm
Argh, make that, "couldn't get in"
August 17th, 2008 at 11:33 pm
There is plenty of time until the election.
I'm pretty good at being civilly disobedient.
contemplation....
August 17th, 2008 at 11:42 pm
Betsy Barton, thank you for being a protester. Any sign of protest is a good thing because it let's people know that there is a problem that they may not have been made aware of. Karma, I totally agree with you. Men's greatest power is to just say no. When there is a surplus of groomless brides sitting on the shelf they will be the ones to protest all the unjust laws against men. I believe the success of the M/FRM should be mixed with silent protest and civil disobedience. But I believe that regardless, the MRM is on the right track. People must remember that feminism succeeded because it was a pack of lies and bad news travels fast. But truth, which is a bit slower, is death to feminism, just ask any feminist. They can face anything except the truth.
Gary, you make a good point concerning Glenn. But we need him where he is. Glenn is an organizer and we are the soldiers who are to get the word out. But I don't worry because my new book "How To Train Your Woman" will be available on this site in about a month and it is not only a survival guide for men but also a call to arms. You will be motivated to civil disobedience once you read it.
Feminists are scared to death because they know their days are numbered. We will see to that.
August 18th, 2008 at 12:02 am
We have to admit, there doesn't seem to be too many men who push for father's rights. Until more men become vocal, their issues will be ignored. Right now, Glenn Sacks is the only FRA I know of.
August 18th, 2008 at 12:15 am
LorMarie,
I am not a father, (sometimes I wonder if its a blessing or a curse) but I would support anything these people would do. But that is not the only issue men face. There are a host of other issues that men do not protest about. It is so common to tolerate issues that affect men, that most men think its the "normal" way things are supposed to work.
August 18th, 2008 at 3:17 am
I only saw the bit where Obama said when it came to advice he went to his wife and his grandma. How very matriarchal of him. Still, at least it's racially well balanced- he goes to a radical black woman as well as to a "typical white woman".
And yes, it is stupid that the only marriage issue Christians care about is gay marriage- better two gays or two lesbians than a single mother, that's my view, and i was raised by a single mother.
August 18th, 2008 at 3:18 am
"There are a host of other issues that men do not protest about. It is so common to tolerate issues that affect men,"
NIMBY. What is common are our monthly protests (rallies). We've been having rallies in local parks for about a year and a half now. We have had hundreds of people sign our sign up sheets. Getting them active is still a lot of work. The neighborhood is getting quite used to seeing our big signs every month. We've only missed one month so far, when we were rained out. Between Torrance and Sherman Oaks, F4JLA and NCFMLA have done over 20 rallies.
http://f4jla.org/
Go to "rally history."
You don't have to hang your butt off a freeway overpass, or traffic sign, to have a very significant effect, albeit not nearly as sensational. We are working on numerous other projects for activism, none really following the sensationalistic model of F4JUK.
August 18th, 2008 at 6:20 am
In the Uk for years most of these TV political debates have the audience loaded with lobbying group members and when its a Party convention the audience is hand picked for the camera, its a surprise if any of the general public who disagree in any way shape or form with a politician will actually meet or engage with politicians coming up to an election. Wake up and join the queue or you will never be heard.
August 18th, 2008 at 7:28 am
We have pshycologically castrated any male resistance to the flow of agit prop that comes from our "politicians".
Men and fathers now hold the position of "learned helplessness", as they are forced to accept their false accussations, and meekly watch their children being raised into chaos.
August 18th, 2008 at 7:43 am
# menscollegeactivist.org Says:
August 18th, 2008 at 7:28 am
We have psychologically castrated any male resistance to the flow of agitprop that comes from our "politicians".
Men and fathers now hold the position of "learned helplessness", as they are forced to accept their false accusations, and meekly watch their children being raised into chaos.
perfectly put. i am sending your thoughts to all of my female family and friends list. thanks for expressing it this way.
August 18th, 2008 at 8:57 am
Stephen says "But I don't worry because my new book "How To Train Your Woman" will be available on this site in about a month and it is not only a survival guide for men but also a call to arms. You will be motivated to civil disobedience once you read it."
But what is in it for those of us who don't have a woman to train? LOL.
Is it going to be available on Amazon? I might be able to write a review.
August 18th, 2008 at 10:54 am
"And why couldn't there have been a pro-fatherhood act of civil disobedience there?"
Two reasons:
1. In America, unlike the U.K., the courts will and happily punish fathers who protest by using the court's litigation hostages (the father's children) and by making that father's next encounter with family court oh so financially expensive. The complicit opposing counsel can be counted on by the judge to file any of a number of possible motions to give the judge access to the offending father.
2. In America, unlike the U.K., we are plagued with trigger-happy "Special Forces wannabes" in the form of excessively aggressive private security guards, local police, state police, homeland police and God knows how many other brands of gun-wielding, taser-wielding bullies just waiting to smack down some easy prey like a father. (No, I am not putting all police in this category, but I am saying that the risk of getting attacked by a bully-cop is MUCH higher in the U.S. than the U.K.)
The family court system in the U.S. could not have gotten as far along in exploiting fathers as it as without having a way to destroy dissenters.
In the U.K., the system and the problems are different. Brutal child support orders and brutal enforcement are not what is happening in the U.K. These guys are having problems even getting to see their kids, but by all indications this is court indifference to that right of the fathers. The U.K. courts are not making U.K. men into a vast slave colony like is happening in the U.S. In the U.S., every slave is at risk for the courts demanding that the slave "double his production or go to jail" in the simple form of an increased support order. The mothers in the U.S. are far more compliant with visitation than in the U.K. because they don't want to risk losing their slave blood money annuity which is falsely labeled "child support". In the U.K., there is not nearly as much money in the mix, so the mother is free to reflect her true attitudes towards the rights of "her" children to have a father.
Big differences between the U.S. and U.K. systems, these are structural and economic, and these are what is shaping to modes of lawful action of American fathers.
But American family court parasites should make no mistake: American fathers are going to shut you down lawfully and punitively and permanently. Most of you will never again find work in the field of "law" (which you weren't really practicing in the first place) or in any form of government service. And certainly those in the private sector already despise you and what you have done to this country and its families. You will become the new lepers of the world -- scorned for the disease which you have carried and which you have inflicted upon so many to feed your greed and power lust.
August 18th, 2008 at 11:05 am
kenboiraq stated - "Until we become a POLITICAL movement raising money and awareness we will fail."
Yes, a very true insight. Men are just now starting to realize that the political is personal.
(Thanks Gloria Steinem, feminist goddess -- I'll just reverse your truth.) Now that you're happily married.
Men have always counted upon being independent of the need for collective action. It's the John Wayne , Gary Cooper mentality. But now, it is a different time. And men are going to have to discover that they are in fact a class that is being extorted by laws and politics.
Pretty much everyone on Glenn's site understands this.
As the great Bob Marley said -- "It takes a revolution to make a solution."
It does not have to be violent. It could be a revolution in how we think about gender warfare.
It could even be a revolution in how we envision our futures.
August 18th, 2008 at 12:43 pm
I have seen archive footage showing Americans take part in mass civil disobedience and seen the brutality used by the police, then again I am told this type of footage did more long-term damage to the police then the protestors.
Even in China were human abuses and liberty have been stamped on with greater vigour then the US are scared of bad publicity during the Olympics, though when the cameras have gone the repercussions could be terrible for those brave enough to speak out but they still raised a fist of defiance knowing full well the cameras wont be there for very long, civil disobedience is definitely not for everyone. Who for some have knowingly committed an act, which at the worst end in their lives, or at the very least long-term incarceration.
I have yet to hear any reporter tell them to stop or for their protection refuse to film them, I have yet to hear the Dalhi Lama tell his people to be quite because they will be brutalised or hide away and only write stern letters of complaint in the name of Anon, or the likes of Rosa Parks apologising for not moving seats on a bus or any latter day feminists apologise for the aggressive and violent behaviour of the suffragettes, who were far worse then the charterists who fought for the rights of men to vote (then to have their story all but removed from the history books in favour of women as if they were the only ones who had to fight for the right to vote). It appears only advocates within family rights have a great embarrassment about any form of dissidence from fathers? Why is this, is it guilt, and for what, not agreeing with the mother of your child?
August 18th, 2008 at 1:03 pm
My hat is off to everyone with F4J signs outside the forum. We need that level of effort multiplied by a thousand to be effective but we are a little bit closer everytime we do something rather than nothing.
August 18th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
"My hat is off to everyone with F4J signs outside the forum. We need that level of effort multiplied by a thousand to be effective but we are a little bit closer everytime we do something rather than nothing."
There ya go!!!
I don't need no stinkin' movement to pick up a protest sign and take it out on a street, but if a few of us can get together that's even better. Today's homework assignment for all men and Dads, make a protest sign, then go stand on a street corner for five minutes.
Four or five of us did a five minute protest one time, just as a rehearsal for a bigger protest we had coming up, and at the next rally we had a guy stop and tell us he saw us out marching on the street last month. Yea, he saw our five minute protest and it made a difference. Sure, that's unusual, but never underestimate our efforts. Every little bit helps. Just think what would happen if everyone, and I mean everyone, did their little bit. Just do it!
August 18th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
Since I live overseas I can't do those things...
August 18th, 2008 at 9:01 pm
Marriage/Sperm strike? I thought it was just a rumor. I've been saying for the last couple of years since I got mine that guys should get a vasectomy as soon as they want to have sex. If/when they decide to get married, let the parents of the bride pay for a reversal or artificial insimination if they want grandchildren and the mother must agree to sign over full-custody and pay child support to the father in the event she decides to file for divorce. Unfortunately, of course we now know that contracts like pre-nups for the average man are useless in today's adversarial court system.
August 19th, 2008 at 9:36 am
1. The media will not cover these protests unless there is a high profile person there, especially if one gets arrested. Think Al Sharpton. If someone well known would organize and be at protest the media would point the cameras. Absent that it is only an opportunity to get arrested and be portrayed as a nutcase. I am a willing peon looking for a leader, I don't just want to run screaming into a hail of bullets. Any leaders?
2. We need lawyers who have been burned and are willing to bring pre-written legislation and pleading to the legislative and judicial branches to accompany the publicity. I am a peon unable to pay the X, support my alienated kids, and subsist. Could Glenn or someone make it advantageous for attorneys to fight pro bono, like they do for illegal immigrants or gitmo detainees? Most fathers can't afford justice in the US.
3. Everything is local. With a single high profile leader in each region there could be events that aggregated attract tens of thousands. I cannot afford to go to Washington or California, and to wave signs at traffic with twenty other unknowns is a waste of energy. Every father's rights organization a)wants money which I don't have and b)is not oriented toward direct action except in publicity stunts.
January 16th, 2009 at 6:22 am
Guys,
When it comes time to shave your face for the first time, what is your choice - an electric razor or a blade? Why?
February 2nd, 2009 at 7:14 am
Привет всем!!!
Интересно почему должно быть так!! Аха что еще придумаешь???
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