Vicki Courtney: 'Any reference to marriage in fashion magazines is a stern warning to avoid it like the plague'
December 17th, 2008 by Glenn Sacks, MA for Fathers & Families
In the new book Five Conversations You Must Have with Your Daughter, youth culture expert Vicki Courtney advises mothers to tell their daughters that "It’s OK to dream about marriage and motherhood" and says that young women have been "brainwashed" against marriage.
Courtney writes:
Any reference to marriage in fashion magazines is a stern warning to avoid it like the plague...God forbid that any of our girls say they are looking forward to becoming wives and mothers! They will likely be met with pitying stares that imply they lack the common sense or smarts to make it on their own.
She quotes my co-authored column Men Blamed for Marriage Decline but Women's Relationship Wounds Often Self-Inflicted (Chicago Tribune, 1/21/07):
The recent census data finding that for the first time the majority of American women are unmarried is being greeted in a largely celebratory tone. One metro daily explains, "Who needs a man? Not most women." MSNBC warns, "Watch out, men! More women opt to live alone." CBS says, "More Women Saying 'I Don't.'"
One syndicated newspaper cartoon depicts a happily divorced woman remembering her ex-husband bellowing, "Where's my dinner?! Iron my shirts!! Lose weight!!!" Several others depict women pondering the single life as their fat, lazy husbands drink beer and watch the game. One female blogger summed up the female blogosphere's reaction--"Hurray for all Single Women! You Go Girls!"
Courtney says "Clearly our young people are buying the message."
While I don't share Courtney's religious/conservative perspective, I also believe that marriage is worth saving. Since women have a large role (arguably greater than men's) in determining the fate of marriage and whether children will grow up in married families or not, what Courtney has to say on the subject is important.
Courtney's website is www.virtuousreality.com.
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December 17th, 2008 at 10:23 am
The "hook" here, of course, is the anti-male attitude, e.g., "You don't need a man! You go girl!" Yeah! Men are useless! (Until your electricity goes off or your car breaks down.)
From the "male" perspective, or at least one male's perspective, I would hope that the decision to be married is premised on something other than a woman's "need" for a man to take care of her. Perhaps the infusion of women into the workplace is separating the women who marry for love from those who marry to have another daddy.
By the same token, the forgotten person here is the child. Children are better off with both parents, despite all the feminists' twisting and pounding to the contrary. It is a proven fact based on overriding and objectively verifiable evidence. And if you don't think so, look at what's happened in the inner city -- the decline of the inner city mirrors the exodus of fathers from their childrens' homes.
So, "you go girl," and "you-need-a-man-like-a-fish-needs-a-bicycle" and all that. EXCEPT if you want to have kids. Then, for their sake, you damn well better find a man you can love and hang onto him.
December 17th, 2008 at 10:37 am
the answer for men is simple.... don't get married, don't have kids. WE should not be responsible for a woman's (or women in general) happiness. They have spoken quite loudly we are NOT needed so let's give them what they want.
Problem is most men will do just about anything for a few minutes of pleasure in their life (and you know what I mean) and give up everything for it. It's not their fault its OURS.
Since we are all fat, lazy, good for nothing slobs let's match the sterotype and be responsible for OUR happiness not theirs.
December 17th, 2008 at 10:39 am
I am currently dating a woman who believes in marriage and whose goal in life is to be a 50's style housewife. She looks forward to it and does not view it as a chore, nor as something that is beneath her. However, when we tell my sisters or other women about this they look at her like she is worthless, weak, and that it is a horrible idea. She has heard from people "Why would you want to wait on someone hand and foot", to which she explains that if I am working hard bringing in money, she should make me as comfortable as she can when I get home. They tell her she is stupid and she will hate it and "wait til you have to do it every day, etc"......it's ridiculous.
December 17th, 2008 at 10:40 am
The article over looks the fact that while many more young (and not so young) women are remaining single it is by far not always by their own choice. I see this with my daughter (now 30) and her group of friends. Only one of them is married. Several others don't even have steady boyfriends and it is definitely *not* because that is the way these young women want it. They'd love to be in a solid relationship but they can't find any men willing to do the same.
Women...be careful what you wish for.
December 17th, 2008 at 10:57 am
I think a lot of women are single because nobody wants them. Who in the hell would want to waste his life with someone cheering the fact women are choosing to stay single. Using common sense and experience you will now start to see more cases of exboyfriends even ones that did not have kids start being taken into court. Women will always have a need for men even if that need is for someone to hate.
December 17th, 2008 at 10:57 am
Women are looking for commitment by men. But, it is only one way. See a women with a car problem or any kind of problem, walk away; let the sisterhood come to the rescue. Give them what they want. If they need police or an army to protect them, let them call on the sisterhood. Women should get what they deserve.
December 17th, 2008 at 11:11 am
Wait until these women hit about 40 or 45. Then they won't be so self righteous. Time changes everything.
December 17th, 2008 at 11:17 am
I don't know about some of you others, but I find dating quite easy, I am in my 40's and the amount of women in their 40's and 50's looking for men is staggering. If I wanted I could have a date a night. But most of these women have baggage like me and they just want to find someone to be with, and some don't care what baggage you bring into the relationship.
December 17th, 2008 at 11:39 am
Dave W you are right about when they hit 40 or 45. Many women have a moment of clarity and are then very sad.
Sure they have their partnership in the law firm or whatever. But they are alone and cannot have a few kids by then. Many of their long term friends are marrried off and raising a few kids - this does not jive with their active single lifestyle.
Additionally they get set in their ways and don't want to compromise their personal lifestyle for the common good of a family.
Over time this sort of thing settles out....since this single forever lifestyle is similar to the Shaker faith. In that religion everyone was celibate, no kids. So the group died out. In this case women have no or 1 kid. Sometimes two.
You need 2.3 kids per couple just to replace Mom and Dad. You need more than 2.3 for the population to grow.
Therefore, over the next few generations any population that follows the no or very few kids strategy dies out. It's not biologically successful.
December 17th, 2008 at 11:44 am
Interestingly absent from her article is the reality that more men than ever are saying, No f**king way... to marriage for all of the legitimate, justifiable reasons that are so often talked about at this site and many others.
December 17th, 2008 at 11:49 am
The dating scene for young people is a cesspool. It is all about the hookup culture, meaning immediate sex is the goal, rather than a mere possibility. When people are trying to meet each other in bars so loud you can't hear a conversation, or go to similar places while on a date, and when phones are used to send texts rather than calls, there's no way for two people to get to know each other. However, even people who want (or think they want) something more longterm take the same approach. It just won't work that easily.
December 17th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
Are men afraid of marriage?
Or are they more afraid of the highly likely onesided divorce?
Or during the marriage having to live up to the woman's evolving impression of what she wants from the marriage?
Whatever happened to the partnership aspect of marriage...where everyone is striving for the good of the family?
December 17th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
taidan, I hear you on the first part of your post.
For some reason(s), people have turned their brains completely OFF, or, maybe its not really for a reason per se, just cultural brainwashing.
December 17th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
re: Women are looking for commitment by men. But, it is only one way. See a women with a car problem or any kind of problem, walk away; let the sisterhood come to the rescue
...reminds me again of a situation where I saw these two young girls, in their 20s', stuck on the side of the road with a flat tire. I stopped to help and they were simply terrified of me. (Two of them, one of me - and I aint exactly the he-man type - but they were terrified, not me.) So I fix the flat and send them on their way. Then a couple years later I see a TV commercial where a petite woman in a mini skirt and high heels changes the flat tire for the pathetic loser man. Reality is quite different.
December 17th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
perspicacious – “The article over looks the fact that while many more young (and not so young) women are remaining single it is by far not always by their own choice. I see this with my daughter (now 30) and her group of friends. Only one of them is married. Several others don't even have steady boyfriends and it is definitely *not* because that is the way these young women want it. They'd love to be in a solid relationship but they can't find any men willing to do the same.”
While it is truly a shame that good women who do want to be in committed relationships are having a hard time finding men so inclined, the simple fact is that the “problem” has not been of men’s making, and that some women are finally coming to realize the unintended consequences of radical feminism is a necessary step towards restoring a more natural/workable order to the dating/sexual/marriage market.
First off, I would remark, based on what I see coming from the younger men whom I have association with, men are not afraid of commitment – they are afraid of modern women (aka feminists). They are learning by hard example the folly (for them) of marriage. In an era where women more and more do not, themselves, respect the sanctity of the marriage commitment, men are unequally disadvantage by entering into that contract.
Now, it is certainly true that both men and women cheat – in roughly equal numbers amongst younger adults, and I would argue that it is always wrong. But, younger people have a looser sense of morals. My brother’s first wife was always proud of her “situational ethics” philosophy; and despite warnings from most of us who knew him (and of her), he decided to marry her anyway. Well, as one could have easily predicted, as soon as she found herself in a “situation” wherein another man became interested in her, her flexible “ethics” allowed her to rationalize that she needed to do what was “right” for her (I doubt I need to explain further).
Fortunately for my brother, no children were involved, but he learned the hard lesson that to many men have had to learn (so as to be an example for the next guy to consider). His flighty wife left him saddled with a huge amount of debt (racked up by her spending), with no practical way of getting her to help paying it off.
An, in some many other cases where children are involved, the economic disadvantages to the man are substantially greater.
I doubt it’s any big secret that a significant portion of young women (perhaps 60 to 80% of them) seek so-called alpha-males preferentially. Be they men of wealth, or merely “bad boys”, they posses the “qualities” that most women truly desire. Such alpha-males comprise perhaps 20% of the overall male population, so they can easily recognize the relative advantages they posses in the dating/sexual market. Women flock to them, “give it up” relatively easily to them, and will actively compete against one another for these men. These men know they hold all the cards. Why would they want to commit to one woman when they have so many options to keep open?
To exacerbate this situation, I believe one problem that women have when assessing men is that most of them seem to only consider what these alpha-males are doing. That alpha-males don’t want to commit does not mean that most men are also unwilling, but rather that the men women would prefer to be with don’t feel any desire or need to commit.
What often ends up happening is that women, frustrated in their pursuit of an alpha, decide to “settle” for a so-called beta-male (~60% of the rest of men), whom they may like well enough, and who they feel can provide for them. While this sort of situation once served to pair women with men who were actually well suited to them, and whom they would grow to love; modern society now allows these situations to become something altogether different.
You may have heard of either the expressions “starter marriage” or “practice husband”. Women don’t actually use these terms, but that is exactly how they see their choices to settle for a (beta) husband. Any more, such marriages provide women with a secure “base”, but their looser commitment to the marriage vows provides them with opportunities to continue to seek men of higher status or greater excitement.
I hear from young men quite frequently that they are reluctant to get married to the girlfriends that they love because they doubt that their girlfriends are as committed to them as they are to the girls. As I noted before, the girls like them well enough, even enough to marry them, but true love is actually quite uncommon amongst young women.
I know this is just sounding like a sexist rant against women, but the fact is that young women are far more likely to be deeply infatuated than deeply in love. One need only look at their choices in movies and books to get a peek at what they desire. Tremulous, whirlwind romances, in which the man “proves” himself to the women dominate the “chic flick” genre. And, if one were to consider “Romance Novels”, one would surmise that a women’s idea man is handsome, fit, well-endowed, wealthy (preferably of Nobel birth) man who will date-rape them. It’s all just infatuation, this idea women are given of romance.
Young men are not immune from infatuation, nor from lust, but the “commitment” a man gives to a woman has historically been born of the desire to cherish and protect his woman, to provide for her, and, if the need should arise, risk his life to protect and save her. A man knew his role was to ensure the safety and survival of his wife and children even at the expense of his own life (Glenn post many excellent examples of how these ideals still motivate men today). And, a man, in choosing a wife, was also committing the fruits of his labors to her, with the expectation (the hope, really) of reciprocity from her.
But, in today’s world, that expectation of reciprocity has been tossed out the window. The “contract” of marriage is legally enforced by courts which are no friend to the man. Marital property is divided up equally, regardless of who put the most into it’s accumulation; nor, as my brother found out, who was on the “hook” for the remaining indebtedness. While there are women who get screwed over, it is disproportionately men who get the short end.
And, during marriage, men are often treated as unnecessary (other than for their paycheck and their manual labors). Once the initial infatuation of a woman wears off, the marital relationship is all downhill. She’ll be certain to notice how she’s not getting what she wants and needs, and she’ll no doubt join her cohorts in loudly complaining about her lousy husband. While I have hear men complain about their lousy wives, other men typically do not give them either and audience, nor much solidarity – maybe a little empathy – since men don’t like to air their personal problems, nor deal with those of other men.
Men and women once understood that they were bound together in marriage, and they needed to work together to build a life together. You see plenty of happy old couples who can tell you how they struggled together, starting out with little or no money. In their generation, infatuation matured into love for one another. Today, infatuation typically gives way to contempt.
Now, again, men are every bit as guilty of ignoring their vows when that infatuation fades; yet they can understand that they stand to be penalized disproportionately by the fallout of affairs. Most men are still held in contempt for their infidelities, but more and more, we see women applauded for theirs (you go girl!). Women have achieve equality in cheating, but the results remain inequitable and against men.
And, since women mostly seek men who are financially better off than themselves, when it all goes bad, it will most often be the man who stands to loose more to the woman than the other way around.
In light of these things, marriage makes increasingly little sense for men to enter into. And, as courts have tried to penalize men by holding that they were in “common law” marriages when their girlfriend is rid of them, even long term relationships with women have become potentially disadvantageous.
I don’t know about the situations of your daughter and her friends. I do not know, for instance, if they are simply setting their sights too high, ignoring a large pool of potential mates, and not having success with the alphas they are only willing to consider. Nor do I know if the men in their social circles are just too “gun shy”. But, I’d guess that it’s one or the other.
Some female writers have lamented that men don’t “grow up” any more. Yet, as the responses to these assertions overwhelmingly reveal, this is not because men have been given the freedom to do so (they really always had the same choices), but rather than modern feminism has created a situation in which women no longer choose to conduct themselves according to the “out-dated” models for courtship, dating, and marriage. Men now find themselves in one of two positions – either they are sought after alphas, who needed commit; or they are unnoticed/unconsidered betas, who would be fools to commit.
Sorry to rants on so long, and probably disjointedly. I saw your lament, and whether it was intended to be female-centric or not, I just wanted to get my immediate response off my chest.
December 17th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
Slwerner - excellent, great post. By all means "rant" all you'd like!
December 17th, 2008 at 1:48 pm
This article does not match what I see around me. All I see is women who are absolutely desperate to get married, and are pulling all kinds of tricks on their boyfriend to force them to do it. I don't know *one* guy who wants to do this, and even those friends of mine who eventually gave up, only did so after a multi-year struggle with their girlfriend. Also many guys I know eventually chose to brake up with their gf instead of getting married.
As for me: I am on a marriage strike and a baby strike. No way in hell I am starting a family in this country until the family law system is totally reformed. Oh And I did brake up with my gf too! :)
To: mike lordi
Be very CAREFUL about the woman who wants to be a housewife: under the current system, it's the situation where you get hurt the most in case of a divorce. If she happens to be a gold-digger, you could be her slave for the rest of your life..
December 17th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Stans point about reproductive demographics is true (though the amount in the West is 2.1 per family not 2.3) but its more tied to city living than anything else. In low tech farming a kid is an asset, in a high tech world, a liability.
Anyway as I see it people who don't want kids ought not be encouraged to have them "for the good of society" , "because god wants you to" or the "good of the state". Raising a child is responsibility that many people, men and women do not want.
I am OK with this outcome. Its better to have a smaller number of happy committed parents
than more meat for the human mill.
December 17th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
Mike Lordi -
Beware of the girlfriend who wants to be a "50's housewife". That's a recipie for a "70's divorcee". You know, the kind that receives LIFE TIME ALIMONY. All that talk about marriage being dangerous .... you have to double the risk if the marriage is to a stay-at-home. That's also the case where the prenups get overturned. Because your little lady companion really has very little options to earn a living after sitting on her butt for 15 years. Avoid at all cost.
Just my 2 cents.
- David
December 17th, 2008 at 3:30 pm
re: In low tech farming a kid is an asset, in a high tech world, a liability.
...that's right. In agrarian society, a child is a moneymaking asset on the farm. In the post-agrarian modern world, a child is an expensive vanity. But societies that discourage reproduction are simply going to die out. Done deal.
December 17th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
Being a wife (much less a mother) even in the most balanced and fair relationship is a load of compromises and give backs. That simply may not be in the cards for many people. Once you have "choice" and independence you won't want to give it back.
Ms Highpower doesn't want a doormat or a blue collar guy yet she can't live with Mr. Highpower either. Two alphas simply won't have time or emotional energy for each other.
The guy they want Mr Ideal Mate is more a fantasy fueled by media than any reality - and so many successful women end up alone.
The hard truth that many feminists don't get is that the differences are not an issue of feminism vs. patriarchy but one of biology.
December 17th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
Pjk said
[Quote] But societies that discourage reproduction are simply going to die out. Done deal. [/Quote]
Thats the opinion of the Demographic Winter people as well http://www.demographicwinter.com/index.html
The thing is that those conditions are soon to be everywhere. Event the 3rd world is getting there slowly but surely.
some of the technology we are building does little to help there either. Maybe we boxed ourselves into an evolutionary dead end.
December 17th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
My last post for a bit. If no one minds I'll play at being a feminist for a second. and ask this
Why would a successful woman want to be a mother?
Its not very fulfilling work for most people, no one appreciates what you do and you don't get paid. Just change one diaper and pretty much that the last time you'll every want anything to do with babies.
Even when kids get to be tolerable most of the time the state is raising them either with public schools or media or whatever. You really are just being used as a baby machine.
Its entirely possible that the reason women had children in the past is that they had no choice in the matter and now that they do .. well its as reason magazine put it
Why are People Having Fewer Kids? Perhaps it's because they don't like them very much.
http://www.reason.com/news/show/125163.html
December 17th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
Women are unmarried because that is their preference?
That's not what I observe. I observe women trying desperately to find a guy to marry them, and guys saying they are afraid of marriage - because they are afraid of divorce, which is always highly likely in this country.
Amazing that women being unmarried is taken as them exercising a choice, like buying a pair of shoes, as if every guy in America is dying to marry them. Absurd.
Thank our family courts for killing marriage by deterring men from it.
And when there aren't enough kids in the next generation to care for America's elders, thank our "family" courts again.
And then shut them down, as they are obviously an enterprise which exists to feed the greed and power lust of a few at the expense of what used to be a much healthier society.
December 17th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
Right the replacement rate is about 2.1 for developed countries and about 2.3 for the undeveloped, sorry about that. If a country or groups is right at that rate then that would lead to zero population growth.
If you dig into it you can see that some populations or ethnic groups are growing or dying off. In some cases the governments incent larger family sizes. Russia has been doing that since 2006 and some results have been seen. France incents financially and some results have been seen.
In many areas larger families (3 or more kids) are rare. Combined with people waiting longer to start a family (longer generations) there are all sorts of effects.
December 17th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
Girls need to be prepared to serve (yes, serve) as good wives and mothers. Is it horrible for women to know their place? No, because if women don't know their place then men won't, either. All kinds of problems are being created because society and the family unit are under attack by the social experimenters.
December 17th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
Some of these comments are cracking me up. Im reminded of the old Eddie Murphy skit when he talks about his traditional african wife with the bone in her nose, and after a few minutes with the "girls" in the kitchen, she comes out running to Eddie crying "what have you done for me lately?", "I want half Eddie, half!". Sad but worthy of a chuckle.
December 17th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
Ill say this, my wife now is true blue traditional. There is nothing subservient of her taking care of me. The fact of the matter is that by her doing that she is raising the bar in how we both treat each other. As a result I am always trying to find ways to be deserving of such wonderful treatment.
December 17th, 2008 at 5:05 pm
Fish:
Your wife may well have the last laugh: if she divorces you, you will be serving her very very well for years to come ;-)
December 17th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
Tom - "All I see is women who are absolutely desperate to get married, and are pulling all kinds of tricks on their boyfriend to force them to do it."
Tom (and others who’ve experienced the same);
It seems to me that women are often far more infatuated with the idea (ideal) of BEING married, much more so than actually being in love with the man in the equation. While I haven’t kept any careful note of such occurrences, it seems to me that I can recall several situations over the last decade or so in which a woman has wanted badly to GET married, only to find her boyfriend didn’t want to, so, in rather short order, that woman ended up marrying someone different.
To me, it was an indication that the women was simply eager to BE married, and it was of somewhat lesser importance to whom she was married. In most of the instances I’ve heard of, I had little knowledge of the individuals involved, but I gathered that the second guy was typically more “beta” like than the boyfriend. It always seemed to me that the women were simply settling on their second (or third….) choice just so that they could be married.
So, for those of you who are perhaps closer to such situations, if you’ll indulge my curiosity, could you tell me; do the women you observe as desperate to marry seem to also be more than willing to move on to another guy (perhaps one less “desirable”) in their quest to find a marriage partner?
December 17th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
Women want to get married, they don't want to be married.
December 17th, 2008 at 5:17 pm
Quoth: Stan
"If you dig into it you can see that some populations or ethnic groups are growing or dying off. In some cases the governments incent larger family sizes. Russia has been doing that since 2006 and some results have been seen. France incents financially and some results have been seen.
In many areas larger families (3 or more kids) are rare. Combined with people waiting longer to start a family (longer generations) there are all sorts of effects."
Absolutely true. Phillip Longman wrote a excellent book on the topic called The Empty Cradle . I would add though that not one country has raised birth rates to replacement with incentives, not one.
Personally other than the lopsided senior/young ratio I can't see any bad outcome in a smaller human population. There are what 6 billion of us now? If the species dropped to a sustainable two, peacefully and over time there really is no downside.
Now if we don't end the stupid gender wars and get men and women back into making babies in numbers enough to replace ourselves it will eventually be a problem. We do have about t 40-80 years to go before its a serious problem, more if we develop life extension.
December 17th, 2008 at 5:19 pm
slwerner Says:
December 17th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
Sorry to rants on so long, and probably disjointedly. I saw your lament, and whether it was intended to be female-centric or not, I just wanted to get my immediate response off my chest.
____________________
I don't view your post as a rant. You had a lot to say and a lot of information to share. Nor was I trying lament for women today but rather was just trying to state that young women aren't single because they want to be single. That is just the feminist spin (as usual) on the situation.
My daughter is a late starter and is finishing up college this year and really hasn't been interested in marriage or children ever...not even as a little girl. She is not the usual woman in that way. Her friends OTOH do want to be married at age 30 and they want to be starting families in the next couple of years but they find it isn't something they can decide on or decide against. The men they meet just aren't interested in marriage or long term commitments for probably the very reasons already provided here.
Also, just as my daughter is a casualty of my broken marriage with her father, so are many of the young men her age. These young men have seen what happened to their fathers, uncles, grandpas, etc. in divorce court and they aren't as naive as the generation before them. Certainly this has much to do with why so many men aren't eager to get married today.
December 17th, 2008 at 5:20 pm
I agree with the majority of the others, if you look at Dating sites the number of over 35s women is huge compared to men. Men of the same age are looking for younger women than them, they are passed their sell by date, gone, past it. They have probably got the house, kids, car, loads of cash, but we are free and easy, albeit emotionally traumatised after all the injustice.
December 17th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
Fish, on an old Eddie Murphy skit – “ after a few minutes with the "girls" in the kitchen, she comes out running to Eddie crying "what have you done for me lately?", "I want half Eddie, half!".”
Fish,
Sadly, my take on the “evolution” of marriage in modern (feminist) times is that it has gone from two people considering what they could each contribute to a marriage to where it is now two people considering what they can possibly get out of a marriage. It’s a change from something of a selfless outlook to an entirely selfish one.
Outside of sex, which women now give out for nothing, a man who entered a marriage to love, protect, and provide for his wife could know that he would receive her admiration for his efforts and sacrifices on behalf of her and their children. Now, women often should almost no respect nor appreciation for their husbands (and, I not implying the husbands are one bit better) for the efforts that they make. We see this in the frequent items about women complaining about their husbands lack of effort in regards to (a limited subset of) housework. They ignore that the guy works all week, and probably does all of the lawn/car care. They focus in on that he doesn’t do the dishes the way they’d like, or some such supposed gripe.
Men are routinely portrayed as lazy oafs, who contribute little beyond a paycheck (which women are owed, I suppose?).
Given that a man can easily get sex without being married, that women feel free to disrespect their husbands in a myriad of ways, and that divorce almost always financially hurts a the man worse than the women, a lot of guys are wisely wary of putting themselves into a situation where they’ll have a wife demanding to know, “what have you done for me lately?”
December 17th, 2008 at 5:29 pm
To Swerner:
Maybe I should clarify my background: my friends and myself are all big-city college-educated top-earning people in their 20's to 40's.
I see two types of women who are desperate to marry:
1. The 30-year old who is watching her last fertile years pass her by: this one would marry anything that breathes.. and start hormone therapy right away to get pregnant! Be careful as she will probably dump the "sperm donor" as soon as she gets what she wants, and/or as soon as she is eligible for CS + alimony!
2. The gf who wants her bf to "commit", but the guy doesn't. Typically, her desire to commit is proportional to his bank account. Some of my highest earning friends could write a soap opera of all tricks their gf use on them. Interestingly, those of my friends who don't earn much, don't get nearly as much pressure.. funny how that works :)
December 17th, 2008 at 5:33 pm
Marriage is slavery for men. period. We have everything to lose and nothing to gain.
I choose to stay single and have fun.
December 17th, 2008 at 5:44 pm
Tom – “Maybe I should clarify my background: my friends and myself are all big-city college-educated top-earning people in their 20's to 40's.”
Alpha-males – understood.
What I was trying to get at was my suspicion that (some) women are so obsessed with getting married that they will literally go through a list of men, from most-alpha down, in order to “get” a husband.
If my suspicions are correct, it indicates to me that women love (or, more accurately, are infatuated with) marriage even more than they love their male partners.
One instance which I was closer to involved a woman who expressed head-over-heels love for her boyfriend (who was clearly a well-to-do alpha). She said she wanted to start a family and buy a home together (and all those other “married” things couples do). But, the guy just wasn’t willing to tie that knot. From what I’ve been told, one day, during an argument, he told her he never wanted to get married. She promptly dumped him, and I think it was less than one month later, she was engaged to another guy – older, balding, and not as well-off (I met the guy once – definitely “beta”). I believe that their marriage lasted about four years, and I think they had one kid (not really sure about that).
I was just wondering if you had observed similar situations within your own sphere of contacts.
December 17th, 2008 at 6:01 pm
Slwerner:
Marriage was always about property! And today is no different.
Other than religious nutjobs (sorry my big city background is showing up here :), very few women are willing to marry if there is no financial reward for them.
Generally, some women marry for the $$, some for the baby and the CS checks.
Those who are in love, are happily dating, or even have kids (I know many unmarried couples with kids, and they are doing very well, some have been together for more than 10 years)
The one you are describing looks like a "baby freak" who was pushing into her 30's. She had no choice but to walk the ladder down, so to speak, because her clock was ticking!
I haven't seen the behavior that you are describing, unless there is a strong desire for the woman to get pregnant!
December 17th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
I think it's OK for young girls to dream about marriage. Many Disney fairytales have characters who do. But I think the problem lies in that many of these girls become incapable of caring for themselves.
Suddenly, it's not their responsibility to be happy. A man is the answer to all her problems. Correction, the perfect man is the answer to all her problems.
December 17th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
perspicacious Says:
'These young men have seen what happened to their fathers, uncles, grandpas, etc. in divorce court and they aren't as naive as the generation before them. Certainly this has much to do with why so many men aren't eager to get married today."
Bingo! You win the prize!
When you consider the fact that his potential mate could unilaterally decide to divorce him for no reason at all, be almost certain to receive 50% of any assets they have (regardless of how much she contributed to the accumulation of such assets), be virtually certain of winning primary custody of any children from the marriage and changing him from a full-time parent to a part-time visitor with his own children and a full-time ATM for his ex, why would any intelligent young male even consider such a ridiculous arrangement?
I can only hope that you are explaining this to these young women. I fear that it is already too late to do much for their generation with regards to marriage and family life.
December 17th, 2008 at 10:04 pm
Persp,
"Her friends OTOH do want to be married at age 30 and they want to be starting families in the next couple of years but they find it isn't something they can decide on or decide against. The men they meet just aren't interested in marriage or long term commitments for probably the very reasons already provided here."
I recommend you forwarding these friends a question.
"What is going to change on the midnight of your 30th birthday?"
"Which Walmart sells decent men to that they will marry?"
"By 30, you will be ready for getting married, what if "he" is not interested anymore?" (Warning: The response to this question can shatter your possible illusions of the dignity/"good sense" these women carry, so be prepared for such eventualities)
December 17th, 2008 at 10:12 pm
I think the late-marriage craze has contributed significantly to the divorce rates. I could be wrong, but the phenomenon is being repeated across the entire world. Increasing age of marriage in society = increasing divorce rates in society, as well.
There is a praxeological explanation for this as well.
1. If you are managing 15 years of sexual needs (15-30) what necessitates the change to a bound and burdened state of marriage?
2. If you have practiced living by yourself for 12 years, is single-hood not a more "known" state to be trusted and continued?
3. If you have lived without a spouse through your formative adulthood, what makes a spouse as lucrative as to risk loosing the freedom that you are accustomed to?
4. The relationships that you have entered and exited to this age - how can you possibly believe that you will emotionally attach yourself to the next romantic other when all the previous ones were not able to persist in that state? If ALL your OWN experiences tell you otherwise, why would you expect or believe anything else from your "marriage" romantic relationship state? Would you not expecting/consider a breakup/divorce if things get tenuous? After all, its been-there-done-that did not regret it. Right?
December 17th, 2008 at 11:42 pm
Oh, no! Women are threatening to not give us something we dont want! How horrid of them!
From what ive seen the number of men who dont want to get married is actually a bit bigger than the number of women who dont want to get married, hence this is not bad news for the male of the species, indeed it may be better for us as we now have a few less women trying to badger us into getting married.
"Who needs a man? Not most women." MSNBC warns, "Watch out, men! More women opt to live alone." CBS says, "More Women Saying 'I Don't.'"
So they are basically saying "I dont want to spend several years doing most of the spending while you do most of the earning, then divorce you, take half your money, the house, the kids, child support and alimony."
Why the hell would i be upset about that?
December 18th, 2008 at 4:41 am
perspicacious – “The article over looks the fact that while many more young (and not so young) women are remaining single it is by far not always by their own choice. I see this with my daughter (now 30) and her group of friends. Only one of them is married. Several others don't even have steady boyfriends and it is definitely *not* because that is the way these young women want it. They'd love to be in a solid relationship but they can't find any men willing to do the same.”
_____________________
Yes perspicacious, I agree with this. As one who has dated a lot, granted in New York which is probably not a fair arbiter, I am continually struck by the adamant desire to marry when the daily paper says something completely to the contrary. I am also struck by how open they are about this, even on a first date, there is a making oneself vulnerable in making such a pitch. But you are right, I am guilty, as I enjoy the company and camraderie, insight, wisdom and laughs, but there is no way, no way I will subject myself to the risks of marriage. The thought of a child being taken from me through divorce court shenanigans is too devastating a thought. Sadly, my measure of a first date, regardless of how fun and successful is when the check comes. If she does not reach for her purse when I reach for my wallet, that can be nothing more than a friend. That happens maybe 10% of the time. Unfair perhaps, and limiting to myself as well.
To those commenting on the dating sites and dating in general. I am always struck by the amount of women who are married, picking up guys in the bar, or once you are out with them inform you they are married, or worse, the next morning. I suspect young women endure the same with married men, but I for one am simply stunned by the amount of people "dating" outside of their marriage. Again my perspective may be skewed because new york may not be a true test, but what is up with that... it is like a badge of honor.
More fodder to remain single for me....
December 18th, 2008 at 9:52 am
# Dave Says:
December 17th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
perspicacious Says:
'These young men have seen what happened to their fathers, uncles, grandpas, etc. in divorce court and they aren't as naive as the generation before them. Certainly this has much to do with why so many men aren't eager to get married today."
Bingo! You win the prize!
When you consider the fact that his potential mate could unilaterally decide to divorce him for no reason at all, be almost certain to receive 50% of any assets they have (regardless of how much she contributed to the accumulation of such assets), be virtually certain of winning primary custody of any children from the marriage and changing him from a full-time parent to a part-time visitor with his own children and a full-time ATM for his ex, why would any intelligent young male even consider such a ridiculous arrangement?
I can only hope that you are explaining this to these young women. I fear that it is already too late to do much for their generation with regards to marriage and family life.
______________________
Dave, Pankaj, I have talked endlessly to my daughter about this but she isn't so concerned about marriage because she is adamant that she doesn't want children anyway making marriage in her mind unnecessary for her. She points out how my marriage to her father turned out as proof that marriage isn't necessarily a "good" thing. I can't fault her for that because it *is* the bad example I set for her. I have to accept responsibility for that.
I have only talked to two of her friends about this issue. One is the friend who is married and I can only hope that works out well because the odds are probably against it. The other is a sweet but naive woman who was foreign born and still lives with her parents at age 30. She is clearly confused by the conflicting messages between her very traditional family and the feminist brainwashing.
In any event all of these young women are brainwashed by feminism. They know they want to marry and they realize they are having difficulty in even finding steady relationships BUT they don't want to see how this came about and how their own behavior plays into their not getting what they want most.
I have advised them to be more caring in trying to see the men's side of dating and marriage issues and to be more concerned for and caring of the men they date but feminism basically dictates that women shouldn't *have to* do anything for men because women are entitled to XYZ treatment from men without having to do anything for it in return. It is really a sad situation for everyone when almost no one truly cares about the person they are sleeping with tonight.
December 18th, 2008 at 10:30 am
Nice assessment perspicacious.
Yes I fear the days of Marriage, at least the way it is on the books currently is numbered. It was already going into decline due to cultural changes putting the needs of the individual above the needs of the tribe; but unfair gender-biased laws of the '70's no-fault reforms only helped in kicking this decline into high-gear.
Our cousins in the UK are already finding out that this trend is irreverseable:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7314435.stm
December 18th, 2008 at 11:09 am
slwerner Says:
To me, it was an indication that the women was simply eager to BE married, and it was of somewhat lesser importance to whom she was married. In most of the instances I’ve heard of, I had little knowledge of the individuals involved, but I gathered that the second guy was typically more “beta” like than the boyfriend. It always seemed to me that the women were simply settling on their second (or third….) choice just so that they could be married.
-------------------------
Here is an ultra-funny (and sadly true) commentary from Chris Rock on love and relationships
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6OaRcsfnY4
***WARNING: CONTAINS FOUL LANGUAGE, DON'T CLICK IF YOU DON'T WANT TO HEAR FOUL LANGUAGE***
December 18th, 2008 at 11:28 am
If the "modern woman" prefers to have kids in her mid to late 30s...and this continues...children will be born with their grandparents in their late 70s...and likely in their 80s for the Dad's parents. So....when the kids are 5-8 the GPs will be late 80s.
It seems like the role of the grandparent keeps decreasing between distance and age.
I sure did love my grandparents and I learned all sort of things from them. And my granddad's both showed me handson things with tools, cars, boats.
December 18th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
Earlier today I emailed Glenn about last night's episode of private practice.
There was a story where a dad was actually portrayed in a good light, abducting his son because mom's boyfriend was beating the kid.
The doctor is put into the tough moral decision to treat the kid (who had a malfunctioning insulin pump) and letting them go (putting his license in jeapordy), or calling the cops (to save his own skin) thereby putting the father (kid's only protector) into jail, and the kid back into abusive hands.
The boy even told the doctor that when the mom challenged the bf and he denied it the mother took the bf's side.
Overall very interesting considering that the private practice seems a very yuppyish liberal leaning show.
December 18th, 2008 at 2:23 pm
We've gotten far away from what the institution of marriage really is. Having been raised up to believe that "all men are dogs" costs me my marriage. The truth is that we all have home-of-origin issues and be willing to work through that with our significant others. If you have the gift of singleness...then stay single. If you'd like to be married - learn what YOUR role is as a husband/wife should be from a wise, Godly perspective and honor that. Nobody really likes to be alone, but some can tolerate it. There are some "needy" people who want to be married so bad that they compromise too much too soon.
Tracy Y. Washington
The Empowerment Expert
www.Fashionyoursoul.com
December 19th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Tracy Y. Washington Says:
"If you have the gift of singleness...then stay single."
Based upon the latest census data, I stongly suspect that the majority of the young people in this country will learn to grow up and grow old with this "gift."
I don't know why people can't see the evidence that is right in front of their nose. When you establish customs and laws that penalize one gender for attempting to marry and have children, that fail to provide even the most basic, common-sense protections for their assets and their relationship with their children, then what do you think the majority of these people are going to do?
Du-uh!!!
December 19th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
Dave, the idea is - because some people make mistakes while eating and choke on their food - others should simply choose to starve to death. Because some people cannot (under conditions artificially manipulated to fail) maintain relationships, others should simply blame the idea of marriage and refrain from it.
But fear not, this will allow propagation of genes of women who respect men, in the long run, all other women will impose a self-inflicted extinction on her type. Unfortunately this is over a very long period of time.
December 25th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
I just spent some time on Vicky Courtney's web site, http://www.virtuousreality.com. It's excellent!
If you're a father of a teenage girl and don't always find it easy to communicate with your daughter on issues of values, Vicky's web site can be a useful tool for you and a great source of inspiration for your daughter.
December 26th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
Needles and Haystacks
Merry Christmas Perpicacious.
I'm happy I read all your comments in detail regarding your daughter's situation. You wrote originally: "[Your daughter's friends would] love to be in a solid relationship but they can't find any men willing to do the same. "
I find that terminology rather interesting with an emphasis on "find" and "any men". _Any men_?!?! Really? Are you saying that these women can't find ANY men for a "solid" relationship or are their standards just too high?
It was my experience in the 80's that most single women just had high expectations demanding that the man earn at least, or more, than they did AND also respect their "equality" and live up to all their other romantic expectations. In addition, they didn't "find" men so much as sat around and waited for the men to come up to them. That doesn't seem to have changed all that much. The women now are willing to date down (a little) and maybe date a man who earns a little less than them AND maybe even put an ad on the internet, but for the most part it's too little way way way too late.
But then again, I've been out of the scene happily for 8 years so who knows? I'd love it if the men really have wised up because that's one of the stages for a successful MRA movement or maybe it's just the hook up culture I've read and heard about.
December 26th, 2008 at 1:03 pm
Why Marry?
Perspicacious says: "Dave, Pankaj, I have talked endlessly to my daughter about this but she isn't so concerned about marriage because she is adamant that she doesn't want children anyway making marriage in her mind unnecessary for her. "
PK responds: Perspiacious, my wife is 33 and was facing a similar situation when I met her back when she was 25. That was a fork-in-the-road moment for her because she felt that if she didn't take action in her personal life, she would have a hard time escaping singleness and probably wind up wind up childless as well.
Much of the difficulty with her choice was that she found herself becoming more and more comfortable remaining single. She had her parents well figured out and she was doing well with her career and she didn't like rocking the boat. So getting married and dealing with another, imperfect, person (me) was a big step for her.
What she tells me she finds rewarding about her choice is that I'm someone who helps her with her problems that she used to face alone. She could call her parents, of course, but with every day that went by as they grew old and had to move into the next stage of their life (retirement), that became less and less comfortable. There's also the happiness she feels from doing feminine things: Putting on makeup for me, getting her doors held open, and flowers once a month.
Then there's the spiritual growth involved in leaving the nest and joining someone else's life. Singlehood for many people, men and women, is kind of like an arrested adolescence.
In closing, your daughter is at the age of 30 and this is kind of like cinderella making an exit plan at 11:55. My wife thought about these issues when she was in her _mid 20's_. Whatever way she wants to go, she better make up her mind quick. Even myself in my 30's realized that once you reach a certain number (40 for men, 30 for women), all the dynamics of the dating world changes just like seasons throughout the year. If she changes her mind and is lucky enough to find a decent man, he'll probably have ex-wives and/or children from a previous marriage.