My Student Expelled from School for Having an Abortion--a Follow-up 15 Years Later
September 21st, 2008 by Glenn Sacks, MA for Fathers & FamiliesLast night my wife and I attended the 15-year-reunion for a Catholic School where I once taught. I taught most of the attendees World History as sophomores.
It was quite a way-back machine. I remembered some names and I recognized some faces, but didn't do too well at connecting them. Still, many of the students remembered me (fondly, believe it or not), and I enjoyed seeing them again.
One group of girls (OK, they're women now but in my mind they're still 14) formed a successful women's clothing company. My wife is familiar with and likes their products--small world that it was my former students who built it. My 10-year-old daughter--who makes clothing designs and wants to be a clothes designer when she grows up (or at least this month that's what she wants)--is going to be thrilled when I show her.
One student I wanted to see was Elena, who had been one of my favorites. She and her boyfriend Darian, who was also in my class, were expelled from the school in mid-year because Elena had gotten pregnant and had an abortion at Planned Parenthood.
The day they were expelled from school I had been out sick, and I was later told that they had come to my room after being expelled to see if I could defend them and get the expulsion reversed. I always felt a little guilty about having been out that day, though of course there was nothing I could've done about the expulsion anyway. It was quite a surprise--I had no idea she was even pregnant.
Elena and Darian were in a no-win position vis a vis the school, since they would've been expelled if she had been discovered to be pregnant, too. I remember one of my smart girls had been expelled from school for being pregnant, and when I protested to one of the Deans I was told,"The rules are the rules."
I heard a little about Elena afterwards--she was going to a new school, etc., but I fell out of touch.
I was looking for her at the party last night and when I couldn't find her I asked Cathy, who organized the event, if she knew whether Elena was coming. She got an odd look on her face, and told my wife and I:
Elena was very depressed after being expelled. She was cut off from her friends and the life she had. She got depressed and her life spiraled down.
A few years later she hanged herself. I was dating a guy whose brother was a friend of hers and he was the one who found her and cut her down.
My jaw dropped. It's still on the floor. I guess we'll never know to what degree her expulsion led to her suicide, but it certainly seems that it was a major factor. And however one feels about abortion, I've always opposed making pariahs out of scared girls who find themselves in a bad situation.
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September 21st, 2008 at 3:57 pm
I guess we'll never know to what degree her expulsion led to her suicide, but it certainly seems that it was a factor. And however one feels about abortion, I've always opposed making pariahs out of scared girls who find themselves in a bad situation.
In my mind there's a huge difference between becoming pregnant, and having an abortion. If you decide to have premarital sex, then; you only potentially hurt yourself. If you decide to have an abortion then you are murdering an innocent 3rd party. When this girl hung herself a few years later that was pure karma.
In any case she attended a private school and she knew the rules. She made a decision and had to deal with the consequences of that decision.
September 21st, 2008 at 4:22 pm
Mike
This is a completely heartless comment and it is attitudes like this which give a good many people problems with MRAs (although MRAs are not the only people who express such views). She was a CHILD and panicked. Does anyone at the school feel any remorse?
September 21st, 2008 at 4:27 pm
Abortions can cause psychiatric problems:
"...the findings of the study suggest that
about 10 per cent of women experience serious
psychiatric problems following abortion...". 1
Also, according to a study called Suicides after pregnancy in Finland, 1987-94: register linkage study , which was published in the British Medical Journal, "Suicides are more common after a miscarriage and especially after an induced abortion than in the general population".
1. J.R. Ashton. The Psychosocial Outcome of Induced Abortion. BJOG (volume 87): p. 1121. 1115-1122.
September 21st, 2008 at 4:38 pm
That's a very sad story. I don't agree at all that the girl hanging herself was a just punishment for having an abortion, although I support the school's right to enforce its own values and standards.
September 21st, 2008 at 4:45 pm
I wish someone had told her how much she will not be missing out on by getting out of a "catholic" school.
Love the "rules are the rules" statement. Shows to go that authoritarianism hurts women too.
September 21st, 2008 at 4:53 pm
Tragic, no less than that.
September 21st, 2008 at 6:21 pm
I realized that I had to make a decision years ago and either choose to continue being a feminist or continue being Catholic. More proof that I made the right choice.
September 21st, 2008 at 6:44 pm
Mike Hunter that is an awful attitude.
September 21st, 2008 at 7:02 pm
It's easy to say "the rules are the rules"... and they are. The bottom line the rules are the rules and she broke the rules. But as many of have discovered when faced with False Accusations, husbandboyfriend battering ie male victim DV/IPV, Fraudlent Pretenses for TROs/ROs/etc, sexual predation of our sons in school by their female teachers... and let's not leave the Female Offender Sentencing Discount out of the equation...
THOSE RULES ARE MEANINGLESS UNLESS THEY ARE ENFORCED.
There are laws against lying about having been raped- but those laws are unenforced and therefore meaningless, which lying women take full advantage of to ruin countless thousands of mens lives every year.
There are laws against females battering or otherwise domestically abusing men- but those laws are unenforced and therefore meaningless, which lying women take full advantage of to ruin countless thousands of mens lives every year.
There are laws against making false statements to a Judge to ___________ (insert goal)- but those laws are unenforced and therefore meaningless, which lying women take full advantage of to ruin countless thousands of mens lives every year.
There are laws against women engaging in sexual relations with a minor child- but those laws are de facto unenforced with female perpetrators and are therefore meaningless.
There are laws against murdering a boyfriend or hsuband- but those laws are de facto unenforced with female perpetrators and are therefore meaningless.
There are laws against robbing banks- but those laws are de facto unenforced with female perpetrators and are therefore meaningless.
Shall I take up the rest of this page and the next 5 pages with specific examples?
It's tragic that the consequences for this girls infraction and subsequent expulsion cascaded out of control and she became so despondant she found solace in suicide...
But let's be honest here- HOW MANY FATHERS HAVE WE READ ABOUT WHO FOUND SIMILAR SOLACE FROM THE PERSECUTION IMPOSED UPON THEM BY FAMILY COURTS, DSS/DCS, CHILD SUPPORT ENFORCEMENT ACTIONS OR EJECTION FROM THEIR CHILDRENS LIVES?????????????????????
Do we blame the men and call them losers?
No, WE understand the pressures they succumbed to, which are not dissimilar to the pressures this girl succumbed to.
The difference is this girl made the choice to engage in unprotected sex and was therefore complicit in her pregnancy which would have resulted in her expulsion and was similarly therefore complicit in her abortion which DID result in her expulsion.
The fathers who suicide I think we can agree here are largely ambushed victims caught up in the social paradigm we call 'The War Against Fathers' which we see so much evidence of in Glenns postings (and Ned, Jim, Leonard, etc on their sites).
This isn't an apples and white wall tires issue, the two are very correlative.
The correlation is a 'zero tolerance' stance borne of policy rather than practice... that refuses to consider circumstances (which would if considered lead to vastly increased involvement of many fathers in their childrens lives and the most felt would be a streamlined process for reducing or suspending child support obligations, not to mention full and complete exoneration for victims of False Accusations) inclusive and pertinent and far more importantly- equal opportunity.
The self same 'zero tolerance' (if unspoken) policies that vilify men in general and fathers in particular on mere accusation with NO EVIDENCE AND NO CORROBORATING TESTIMONY... then prosecute them accordingly.
The equal opportunity comes into play in major portions when you stop to consider male victim DV/IPV ie female offender DV/IPV and female perpetrators of felonies who would then be facing meaningful prosecution and incarceration.
This girl is a casualty of zero tolerance as much as a casualty of her own choices.
THIS IS NOT ... I REPEAT IS NOT ... TO BE CONSTRUED IN ANY MANNER WAY SHAPE OR FORM AS MITIGATING THE TRAGEDY OF HER SUICIDE.
It's simply to illustrate that if you have rules, they meaningless unless you enforce them, and enforce them equally... but without Draconian 'zero tolerance' policies that get 3rd graders ejected from school for drawing pictures of futuristic ray guns or carrying butter knives in their lunches to cut an apple with.
Translation: for all we've progressed socially? We're still a mess civilly... and there have been and will be victims of that mess whether they deserved it or not.
Gunner Retired
September 21st, 2008 at 7:34 pm
gunner says:
"THIS IS NOT ... I REPEAT IS NOT ... TO BE CONSTRUED IN ANY MANNER WAY SHAPE OR FORM AS MITIGATING THE TRAGEDY OF HER SUICIDE."
well, shucks, why would anybody think THAT?
September 21st, 2008 at 7:57 pm
Gunner retired: you hit it right on the head. And so long as there is no penalty for lying on the stand about rape, there really is no reason to believe any woman who makes such claims. The oath she takes is meaningless.
September 21st, 2008 at 8:04 pm
JRP said:
"Also, according to a study called Suicides after pregnancy in Finland, 1987-94: register linkage study , which was published in the British Medical Journal, "Suicides are more common after a miscarriage and especially after an induced abortion than in the general population"."
Thanks for the info JRP. As far as I know, homosexuality is also associated with a high suicide rate. If anyone knows any data, I would be interested. I think it is important for all human beings to feel loved and valued for who they are.
MXY
September 21st, 2008 at 8:27 pm
We have to be careful with blind statements like "the rules are the rules" or "I am only doing my job." Statements like these are sometimes over-used as excuses merely to avoid compassion, uphold the status-quo, or reduce the cognitive-dissonance associated with having to face one's moral conscience.
Human beings sometimes have a nasty habit of taking the path of least resistance and mentally justifying negative actions with excuses. For example, the Milgrim Shock Experiment taught the dangers of blind-obedience. The Zimbardo Prison Study taught the dangers of self-fulfilling prophecy (role play). The Asch studies on conformity taught the dangers of "going with the flow."
MXY
September 21st, 2008 at 9:05 pm
What about the father? Any word on him?
September 21st, 2008 at 9:12 pm
Any extremely stressful situation will put a person at risk of suicide.
September 21st, 2008 at 9:24 pm
What the hell is this? Psychopath week at GlennSacks? Pipe-whackings, “rape is insignificant” and now this…
Mike Hunter Says:
“If you decide to have an abortion then you are murdering an innocent 3rd party.”
The right wing counterpoint to the left wing idea that its okay to have an abortion right up to the waters breaking, is the idea that an embryo is a human life- it is not, it is a potential human life, and whereas there should have to be a very good reason to destroy it, an embryo is not equivalent to an already-existing human life, hence it’s destruction is not murder.
“When this girl hung herself a few years later that was pure karma.”
Ignoring the grotesque callousness of this statement and sticking to logic, how is it a fair punishment for “karma” to take an existing and sentient human life in return for what was only a potential human life?
September 21st, 2008 at 9:25 pm
I'm with Glenn on this one. I think it's terrible when things like this happen. I also think that, by and large, the social atmosphere that may have led to this situation is largely gone, for women.
While it was at one time a source of extreme shame to be pregnant and unmarried (and who wouldv'e thought Dan Quayle would be right about something???), now it is becoming "celebrated" as "empowering"....
Which social view is less damaging in the main, do you think?
Also, I would submit that it is BECAUSE men have not been released from "traditional male sex roles", that women have the ability to force men into parenthood...just like countless little girls prior to the 60's.
So let me be the first to draw a direct line between this girl's story, and that of men who hang themselves after years of fruitless court battles.
They are both equally tragic.
September 21st, 2008 at 9:35 pm
Gunner retired, stop doing an impression of Michael “Doc” McCoy…
“It's easy to say "the rules are the rules"... and they are. The bottom line the rules are the rules and she broke the rules.”
This is exactly the kind of thing Doc says when trying to justify treating “deadbeat dads” the way Dirty Harry treats serial killers. Its not valid in either case- if the rules call for expulsion for something so minor they are too harsh and should be amended, you know, like the rules that put men in jail for not paying their child support.
“The difference is this girl made the choice to engage in unprotected sex and was therefore complicit in her pregnancy”
We do not know that this is so- maybe it was unprotected sex, maybe the condom leaked or the pill didn’t work for this particular girl- we simply don’t know, hence we cant say how responsible she was or wasn’t for the pregnancy.
September 21st, 2008 at 10:23 pm
Michael is probably about to complain about how Gunner now wants to chase down and execute all of the defrocked Catholic schoolgirls. That's the "logic" he's used on other threads, anyhow.
September 21st, 2008 at 10:29 pm
{What the hell is this? Psychopath week at GlennSacks? Pipe-whackings, “rape is insignificant” and now this…}
...compared to the harm caused by false accusations. (Don't use the whole quote or anything, Andrea.)
September 21st, 2008 at 10:30 pm
It should be no surprise that a Catholic school has such an expulsion policy.
How many boy's have their college aspirations destroyed by zero tolerance policies that get the suspended for fighting if they don't let bullies beat the crap out of them? The school record only says "suspended for fighting." These are the policies pushed by l bureaucrats that oppose self defense at all levels.
This young lady had serious temporary problems for which she chose a permanent solution. It is sad, but by no means tragic.
Also, a point of order. The pro abort crowd believes in such not just until the water breaks but up until the baby takes its first breath. They believe that a mother has the right to choose abortion even as the baby is crowning.
The Princeton University dean of bioethics believes a mother should be able to kill a baby up 30 days after birth if it is deemed "defective." How's that for "bioethics?"
September 21st, 2008 at 11:04 pm
The moral of the story is to cry rape the next time you get pregnant; that way you don't have to worry about being judged, and if anybody brings up the subject of whether or not you're lying they'll just be accused of not caring about rape. (Not that this ever happens on any blog associated with men's rights!)
September 22nd, 2008 at 12:57 am
Fishydude,
You have no idea what you’re talking about. Abortions are ok even after the water breaks? What kind of stupidity is that? Is that what Rush Limbaugh said? And you believe it?
How did the school even know that she had an abortion? That is private information. Who told on her?
And what this really shows is who are the real culprits of abortions—the Christians. If it weren’t for Christianity, there’d be far fewer abortions in this country. But Christians are anti-sex (except for themselves), anti-birth control, anti-abortion even if a father rapes his 9 year old, anti-medically accurate sex education, and pro-wait-till-marriage-till-you-have-sex. Not surprising that they are the ones who have most of the abortions.
They’ll do anything they can to keep condoms and pills away from teens (these are abortion-causing, in Catholics’ eyes at least, because they prevent fertilization).
They should be ashamed of themselves. They’re the murderers.
September 22nd, 2008 at 2:36 am
jeana said...
How did the school even know that she had an abortion? That is private information. Who told on her?
That occured to me also. Maybe she'd said something to other students? Nevertheless it's a gross breach of her privacy.
@Glenn...any idea?
September 22nd, 2008 at 2:59 am
Jeana asked: "How did the school even know that she had an abortion? That is private information. Who told on her?"
It's surprising to agree with her on any topic discussed here, but this is an excellent question. Just how did the school find out she had an abortion? Even before HIPAA, medical confidentialty rules did exist, particularly for something sensitive like this. Planned Parenthood didn't and doesn't blab about who terminates a pregnancy in its facilities.
So who did tell the school and why? If it were someone outside the family and not a staff member, why did the school staff believe it and act upon it to begin with? Anyone can make up anything about anyone. You don't have to believe it or use it as a basis of an investigation. To do so is typical of dictatorial regimes, family court judges, and busybodies--and the school was definitely in the last category. Expulsion was applied for something outside the school and having nothing to do with it, for an activity that was medically and legally confidential. That could have been the grounds for a lawsuit.
I'm no fan of abortion, but when you're talking about a scared girl who was probably under the age of consent anyway, it's possibly the least of all evils. Given the long, sorry history of the Catholic church on sexual matters and human life ("Ha! No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!"), the action of this Catholic school has a whiff of hypocrisy. Rules are rules indeed. But sometimes their administration is hypocritical. The Nazis were just following orders (the rules) too.
To try to make some kind of moral comparison between this girl having an abortion and later hanging herself, and men and boys as victims in dealing with women, perturbs me. She was 14 or so when she had the abortion, not a 30-year-old making a false accusation or taking an ex to the cleaners. Maybe she was pressured into sexual activity. We just don't know for so, but research into sexually active girls suggets that coercion or force is common the younger the girl is. None of you are condemning the boyfriend, who was an important part of the whole problem in the first place. Malcolm has another excellent point about how all this makes MRAs look.
Let's face a sordid reality. These days, we have the opposite problem: too many young teens choosing to keep a baby and becoming single mothers on our dime. Giving the child for adoption would be a happier medium, but the attitude now seems to be all or none. And most of these babies are likely to become criminals/ne'er-do-wells, future promiscuous single mothers, or have birth defects or developmental difficulties--all of which render them drains on society, not some sort of "blessed event".
September 22nd, 2008 at 3:02 am
In my previous post: "We just don't know for so, but research into sexually active girls suggets that coercion or force is common the younger the girl is."
Fumblefingers strikes again. That sentence should read: "We just don't know for sure, but research into sexually active girls suggests that coercion or force is more common the younger the girl is."
September 22nd, 2008 at 3:45 am
Catholics have the most abortions? Can you back that up?
September 22nd, 2008 at 3:53 am
I agree that Mike Hunter's judgement is far too heartless. Whatever one thinks of abortion, there should be some room for forgiveness in situations like this.
It must be really awful to find out about a suicide in the circumstances that Glenn did. Especially when it was someone that young.
For the school to find out about an abortion was a major breech of privacy, and shouldn't be grounds for expulsion.
September 22nd, 2008 at 3:54 am
Mike Hunter:
"When this girl hung herself a few years later that was pure karma."
Regardless of your views on abortion, that was a perfectly horrible thing to say, Mike Hunter.
When a woman falsely claims that her husband abused her and their children and it is proven that she's lying about that and many other things, and the husband is still the one who gets creamed by the corrupt family court system, and he goes off and kills himself, is that karma? Man, get a grip and stop trying to up mess up what we're doing here with crap talk.
As for the girl, I'm sorry about the way things turn out for her. However, one will never know to what extent the abortion--though abortions are known to cause extreme anxiety in some women--and her subsequent explusion led or contributed to her suicide (it may not have anything at all to do with either, we will never know) therefore I'll reserve judgement.
September 22nd, 2008 at 5:08 am
Jeanna / Gwallan:
If you read the post again, you'll see that Glenn was told by 'Cathy' about the situation.
As she (Cathy) "was dating a guy whose brother was a friend of hers" (her being the person who committed suicide) we can pretty safely assume that Cathy was a student at the time, not a teacher. It's not at all uncommon for fellow students to know what's going on with their peers and classmates - there's no breach of privacy suggested.
Nick S:
"For the school to find out about an abortion was a major breech of privacy, and shouldn't be grounds for expulsion"
I agree with you on this.
The headmaster could/should have quietly ignored any rumours he heard about the situation, and I imagine many headmasters of Catholic schools (or any other type) would have done so.
However, I can't imagine that an organisation like 'Planned Parenthood' would have told the school directly, so someone presumably spotted them going in or they confided in the wrong person and it filtered back to the school in a way that left the Head no choice but to expel.
September 22nd, 2008 at 6:11 am
This is one of the reasons I do not like the term "pro-choice." It minimalizes the effects of the actual abortion. If the school knew of this, then I hope that her parents knew what was going on. I would like to know what the impact was on Darian as well. I have been through this, and it can be a very lonely time for both young people. Talk about fear. Anyway, I believe that the abortion probably did play a role in her suicide. I still feel guilt and sorrow today, and that was over 20 years ago that my ex and I made that "choice." Knowing the impact that it had on both of us, I wish we would have made a different "choice." She feels the same way.
September 22nd, 2008 at 6:46 am
Jeana,
I hear the intro to Oprah playing; you better go now or you'll miss it
September 22nd, 2008 at 7:05 am
Do you ever do anything except lie,mancan?
“Michael is probably about to complain about how Gunner now wants to chase down and execute all of the defrocked Catholic schoolgirls.”
I never said that, neither did he for that matter.
“That's the "logic" he's used on other threads, anyhow.”
Im surprised you can even spell logic- you certainly can’t use it.
September 22nd, 2008 at 7:18 am
"women who have abortions have no greater risk of mental health problems than if they carry the pregnancy to term" The American Psychological Association. Well done -another step back from reality. Just means more trauma to come. So once again the lines of communication fizzle and short-circuit passing over what is,what should be and what we wish. Let's all be empowered. Tragedies ignored, biology ignored, reality ignored. It never ends does it.
September 22nd, 2008 at 7:33 am
i wonder if her instability came more from being expelled from one of, in a world of 100,000 schools, or the realization that she killed her only child?
its her body i guess. suicide is always tragic, for those left behind. so is murder.
September 22nd, 2008 at 8:11 am
# JRP Says:
September 21st, 2008 at 4:27 pm
Abortions can cause psychiatric problems:
"...the findings of the study suggest that
about 10 per cent of women experience serious
psychiatric problems following abortion...". 1
Also, according to a study called Suicides after pregnancy in Finland, 1987-94: register linkage study , which was published in the British Medical Journal, "Suicides are more common after a miscarriage and especially after an induced abortion than in the general population".
1. J.R. Ashton. The Psychosocial Outcome of Induced Abortion. BJOG (volume 87): p. 1121. 1115-1122.
Carrying a child to term can cause psychiatric problems :
"During the postpartum period, up to 85% of women experience some type of mood disturbance. For most women, symptoms are transient and relatively mild (ie, postpartum blues); however, 10-15% of women experience a more disabling and persistent form of mood disturbance (eg, postpartum depression, postpartum psychosis).
Risks for infanticide and suicide are high among women with untreated postpartum psychosis."
--Ruta M Nonacs, MD, PhD, Associate Director of the Perinatal Psychiatry Clinical Research Program, Department of Psychiatry, Massachusetts General Hospital, Harvard Medical School
September 22nd, 2008 at 8:34 am
and when I protested to one of the Deans I was told,"The rules are the rules."
Except when it comes to molesting kids, or turning the other cheek, or the greatest commandment ever handed down by god(if you belive in that crap) forgiveness.
Isnt it heartwarming that the most dispicably cold and creul human beings turn out to be devout belivers?
@maccan
Dude learn to read, jenna said CHRSTIANS were the one getting the abortions because of the dumb ass backward veiws on birth control and sex ed
The only thing she said about catholics was they veiwed BC as the same as abortion
A little hint re-read something a second time before you ask someone to back up a claim they never made
September 22nd, 2008 at 10:00 am
Jeana, atheists are historically the greatest mass murderers. In the last century alone they killed well over 100 million of their own people. Even the most murderous religionists have not come close to that. And no Christian church has sanctioned killing unbelievers in at least 4 centuries. Only Islam current has such active beliefs, but even they can't match the body count of Fidel, Mao or Stalin.
I am not a Christian, nor do I play one on TV. But I do not believe Christians to be an enemy of freedom.
And yes the pro abortion crowd does believe in abortion at least up until the baby is crowning. That is what they mean by no restrictions. They see any restriction as inevitably leading to outlawing abortion.
And here is a news flash for you. Over turning Roe V Wade will not outlaw abortion. It will return it to a states rights issue. Massachusetts and California will never outlaw abortion. They won't even outlaw sticking scissors in a baby's brain.
September 22nd, 2008 at 10:20 am
For those asking, the school found out via rumors and gossip about it, which probably happens in most cases.--GS
September 22nd, 2008 at 11:04 am
Wow... the hypocrisy is overwhelming.
Abortion, by itself, is not the problem. The problem is that we live in a society that feel pornography is worse than violence, but we overtly sexualize young girls. Right-wingers claim to be pro-life, but would chastise and excommunicate a pregnant girl. So much for the importance of parenthood and the support of the family and community that should go with it.
Left-wingers say they are pro-choice, yet they only fight for your right to choose abortion. What about fighting for the right to be a parent and fighting for a cultural change that would help and support the pregnant girl.
We don't do those things because we are a highly individualistic society that believes in the invisible hand... greed is good... individual self-interest is what helps the economy.
We are all in this together. Pregnant teenagers and their babies too. There will always be pregnant teenagers. A war on teen pregnancy and teen sex will be as futile as the war on drugs.
She would not have had the abortion if she was not lead to believe her life would be over if she had the baby.
September 22nd, 2008 at 11:33 am
fishydude, got any proof
Of god or your claims>
September 22nd, 2008 at 12:15 pm
That's not the first time you've called me a liar, Claymore. I don't appreciate that, especially coming from a hysteric who labels everyone who disagrees with him as "Andrea Dworkin" or "psychopath" or "right-wing lunatic."
September 22nd, 2008 at 2:25 pm
Okay, I am going to ignore all of the comments on here and say a couple simple things on the original post:
Glenn, I wish to express my sympathy. That must have been very hard to deal with. My heart also goes out to the girl in question, and to her family.
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:03 pm
Pankaj Says: Love the "rules are the rules" statement. Shows to go that authoritarianism hurts women too.
You're not talking about the legal system or society at large here. You're talking about the Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church may well be one of the last bastions of anti-feminism that will *not* change the rules just for the girls. That apparently is why Jeana says she left the Church and it is precisely why I returned to the Catholic Church after an absence of 35+ years. I liked that they stick to their rules even when it goes against "social policy" and makes them "unpopular" in the mainstream. Basically Right is Right and Wrong is Wrong. If a church doesn't hold to basic human morality then it isn't really a church.
I'm wondering how the school officials found out about the abortion? Planned Parenthood does not break confidentiality by releasing records.
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:12 pm
Gunner Retired Says: It's tragic that the consequences for this girls infraction and subsequent expulsion cascaded out of control and she became so despondant she found solace in suicide..
__________________________
You are making a possibly wrong conclusion here. She may or may not have hung herself because the school kicked her out.
IMO much more likely she could not live with the knowledge she'd had an abortion. Being a Catholic can make the guilt greater but many women who've had abortions feel guilty and have a hard time getting past it who are not Catholic. Read up on actress Jennifer O'Neill's experience with abortion and how it caused her to go public with her experience in the hopes of raising awareness of the horrible consequences many women suffer for years after aborting a pregnancy. Things the gals at NOW and Planned Parenthood don't talk about or counsel women about prior to having abortions.
Finally, we don't know what else went on in Elena's life. Maybe neither the school nor the abortion had nothing to do with her suicide. Maybe she was biologically susceptible to depression. Or maybe some other subsequent negative life event pushed her over the edge. To assume from this small look at her life that it was definitely this one thing or another is just guess work.
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:27 pm
Factory Says: I'm with Glenn on this one. I think it's terrible when things like this happen. I also think that, by and large, the social atmosphere that may have led to this situation is largely gone, for women.
__________________________
So true. And unfortunately so.
I went to Catholic high school for 3 years. In my Junior year 1 girl (the only one I know of in my class) got pregnant. She left the school. The archdioceses would have made her leave eventually however they had a separate school for pregnant teens where she could have gotten her diploma. This girl got married and dropped out completely.
Due to a family move my Senior year was in a public high school. They had a daycare there staffed with taxpayer paid care givers so the female students could bring their infants and *toddlers* to school with them. In my graduating class there were at least 15 visibly pregnant girls and who knows how many who weren't yet showing. It was also impossible to see how many of the graduates already had 1 or 2 kids.
So, yes in the public school the shame was gone from teen pregnancy. In fact it was rewarded in that that taxpayer paid daycare removed more of the negative consequences of bad or unwanted behavior (getting pregnant as a teen and before marriage). So naturally we saw far more pregnant teens and teen moms in the public school than in the Catholic one.
Point being: That old atmosphere was there for a good reason. When you reward bad behavior you see a lot more of it.
BTW, I'll repeat that we don't know that Elena being thrown out of Catholic high school was the reason she killed herself. I have a friend who hung himself at age 33. He was rife with personal problems and to this day none of his family and friends know for certain what made him do it. That is one of the things that is the hardest for those left behind to deal with.
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:32 pm
ManCan Says: The moral of the story is to cry rape the next time you get pregnant; that way you don't have to worry about being judged...
________________________________
Rape as an excuse for abortion wouldn't and still won't work with the Catholic Church. They don't believe in abortion even when the mother's life is in danger. It's their Church and they make the rules and anyone who disagrees doesn't have to remain in the Church.
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:37 pm
Jeana Says: But Christians are anti-sex (except for themselves), anti-birth control, anti-abortion
_________________________
Unlike Jeana, I can't speak for all Christians. I'm a Catholic and that's what I know. Catholics are not "anti-sex." They are anti-screwing around with anyone you meet like dogs in the road. They believe the human body is sacred and as such so is sex. It is a beautiful act between a husband and a wife. It is also an act with natural consequences (pregnancy) and if you don't want to deal morally with the consequences, then don't have sex and if you don't like that philosophy you are always free to leave the Church.
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:40 pm
ManCan Says: Catholics have the most abortions? Can you back that up?
_________________-
Everything I've ever read on the subject indicates that black women have the most abortions.
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Nick S Says: For the school to find out about an abortion was a major breech of privacy, and shouldn't be grounds for expulsion.
____________________
Catholic schools are private. Unless they accept government funding, they make their own rules regarding behavior. If those rules are unacceptable to some....well, nobody has to go to a Catholic school.
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:46 pm
"cascaded out of control and she became so despondant" ... referring to events in her life subswequent to and while exclusively a direct result of the explusion, certainly the result of events and circumstances set into motion as a result of that explusion ... "she found solace in suicide".
Cascading events have a way of taking on a life of their own.
Ask any chronic pain sufferer who's found themselves unemployed and relying on disability subisides resultantly...
How fast cascading events can become quickly unmanageable.
GR
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:48 pm
James Howard Says: The headmaster could/should have quietly ignored any rumours he heard about the situation, and I imagine many headmasters of Catholic schools (or any other type) would have done so.
______________________________
The headmasters of Catholic schools are called principals just like in public high schools. The principals of Catholic schools were in the past usually nuns and sometimes priests. As such they considered guidance of the souls of their students to be of as great importance as educating their minds. Again, anyone who finds that offensive or wrong doesn't have to attend a Catholic school but once you agree to attend...you play by their rules or you are shown the door.
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:55 pm
Glenn Sacks Says: For those asking, the school found out via rumors and gossip about it, which probably happens in most cases.--GS
___________________
Thanks for the additional info, Glenn. When I was in Catholic high school I was the subject of an ugly rumor. It wasn't true.
Which makes me wonder if this wasn't the same. Did the school investigate the rumor? In the end the only way the school could know for certain it was true is if Elena or her boyfriend admitted it to the school.
September 22nd, 2008 at 5:05 pm
I think this story illustrates how this institution failed this young girl. While I firmly believe that her abortion placed a heavy burden on her heart that must have contributed to her Depression, I would expect more compassion from a religious institution.
Rather than being expelled, this young woman should have been referred to a support group and given counseling. Maybe if the school had a more open policy towards addressing teen pregnancy, this young lady wouldn't have panicked and felt isolated.
September 22nd, 2008 at 5:09 pm
"And yes the pro abortion crowd does believe in abortion at least up until the baby is crowning. That is what they mean by no restrictions. They see any restriction as inevitably leading to outlawing abortion."
Virtually no one is asking for late-term abortions, except when they put the mother's life at risk. However, antichoicers very frequently go to the other extreme, opposing contraception.
"The Catholic Church may well be one of the last bastions of anti-feminism that will *not* change the rules just for the girls."
Recognizing that "the girls" are human beings is apparently too much to expect from a religious institution. According to you, anyway. I don't think it is.
September 22nd, 2008 at 5:20 pm
It is sad that this young women killed herself. It seems to me more likely that abortion was a larger factor than expulsion from school, since there is a known link between abortion and suicide. Nowadays, the Catholic schools that I am familiar with have much more supportive policies toward teen pregnancy. A teenage girl who becomes pregnant can stay in school and there are even special programs to help her.
September 22nd, 2008 at 5:20 pm
"perspicacious Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:40 pm
ManCan Says: Catholics have the most abortions? Can you back that up?
_________________-
Everything I've ever read on the subject indicates that black women have the most abortions."
Wow. The inaneness of this non-sequitur reveals a truly rabid sort of racism.
September 22nd, 2008 at 7:45 pm
Hari says: "Recognizing that "the girls" are human beings is apparently too much to expect from a religious institution. According to you, anyway. I don't think it is."
Factory says: Wow, so we have to give girls different rules from boys, change things to make them feel more comfortable....just in order to "recognize their humanity"? Why is it so hard for girls to live up to the same expectations boys do? I thought you were a feminist....
Hari Continues: "Wow. The inaneness of this non-sequitur reveals a truly rabid sort of racism."
Well, unless most of the literature breaks things down by race rather than religion, in which case your reaction reveals the most rabid sort of anti-religious views.
Pot, meet kettle.
September 22nd, 2008 at 8:55 pm
"Factory says: Wow, so we have to give girls different rules from boys, change things to make them feel more comfortable....just in order to "recognize their humanity"? Why is it so hard for girls to live up to the same expectations boys do? I thought you were a feminist...."
I fully support men's right to an abortion, as much as it applies (joking aside, I do support paper abortions for men).
"Well, unless most of the literature breaks things down by race rather than religion, in which case your reaction reveals the most rabid sort of anti-religious views."
In the particular subject they WERE discussing religion, and then he just comes out with this non-sequitur about blacks. "I think strawberry jelly beans are the best kind." "Well I think Jelly Belly are the best kind." It's a category error. Duh.
September 22nd, 2008 at 10:02 pm
"That's not the first time you've called me a liar, Claymore."
Stop lying and i'll stop calling you a liar. You claim people said things they didn’t, and that others didn’t say things they did say, if that doesn’t make you a liar it sure as hell doesn’t make you truth-teller of the year. I have given quotes for all the instances of your lies, and honest people will know that. Make no mistake, canman, I could care less what you think, but this is a public argument and it is the moral duty of honest and rational people to put forward their views so that visitors don’t assume we are all apologists for rape and murder.
“I don't appreciate that, especially coming from a hysteric who labels everyone who disagrees with him as "Andrea Dworkin" or "psychopath" or "right-wing lunatic."’
See, there’s another pair of lies- I never called you Andrea Dworkin, another member did, and ive had plenty of disagreements without getting vitriolic, but I have to call it as I see it and the last few days what ive seen aint pretty.
September 22nd, 2008 at 11:56 pm
Hari Says: Wow. The inaneness of this non-sequitur reveals a truly rabid sort of racism.
__________________________________
Another pseudo-intellectual liberal rings in with their own rabid bias. For your information, Hari, I didn't make up the statistics. Here's one source I've deigned to provide for your enlightenment. There are lots out there. Try doing some research of your own before you lob nasty allegations like that again.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,348649,00.html
Abortion Rate Among Black Women Far Exceeds Rate for Other Groups
Blacks do, indeed, have much higher rates of abortions than whites or other minority groups. In 2000, while blacks made up 17 percent of live births, they made up more than twice that share of abortions (36 percent). If those aborted children had been born, the number of blacks born would have been slightly over 50 percent greater than it was.
End Quote
September 23rd, 2008 at 12:13 am
Hari says: In the particular subject they WERE discussing religion, and then he just comes out with this non-sequitur about blacks.
______________________
SHE, Hari. I am a SHE.
Just to further enlighten you: I quoted who I was responding to as well as their actual comment in full when I made the comment about black women that has your liberal panties in such a twist. You know, the comment you called me a racist for posting...the same one I showed you is not personal racism but a well known statistic.
Did you miss my original comment, Hari? No, you couldn't have missed my original post because you responded to it when you called me a racist. So...then, you did see my original post with all the info as to what I was responding to and you apparently decided to just completely ignore the context. You are way out of line here.
Just to make it a little easier for your mind to grasp what I'm saying, here's a copy of my entire post on the subject:
Begin Quote
# perspicacious Says:
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:40 pm
ManCan Says: Catholics have the most abortions? Can you back that up?
_________________-
Everything I've ever read on the subject indicates that black women have the most abortions.
End Quote
No non-sequitor involved here, Hari. I was completely on topic. Maybe you can stop policing posts now? You probably should be paying more attention to your own.
September 23rd, 2008 at 12:16 am
Religious breakdown of females who have abortions:
43% Protestant
27% Catholic
8% other religion
(13% of religious females say they’re “born again”/evangelicals)
22% no religion
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3422602.html
September 23rd, 2008 at 12:51 am
I bet if Elena was in school and no one knew about the abortion she’d be fine. But everyone knew, she was publicly humiliated, she was very young and without developed coping skills, undoubtedly other parents didn’t allow their daughters to associate with her, and she probably felt all alone. I’d be willing to bet that’s why she killed herself.
There really isn’t any greater risk of depression or suicide from abortions than from any other major life change. Only anti-abortion researchers with methodologically flawed studies find linkages. But because they’re not valid, major psychiatric and psychological organizations don’t use them.
“As summarized in the Guttmacher Institute's May 2006 report, Abortion in Women's Lives, the APA found that ‘women who are terminating pregnancies that are wanted or who lack support from their partner or parents for the abortion may feel a greater sense of loss, anxiety and distress. For most women, however, the time of greatest distress is likely to be before an abortion; after an abortion, women frequently report feeling 'relief and happiness.'”
www.guttmacher.org/pubs/gpr/09/3/gpr090308.html
And a month ago, the American Psychological Association just concluded their study “Report of the APA Task Force on Mental Health and Abortion” and found no link (at least not a single abortion with no other risk factors such as “poverty, prior exposure to violence, a history of emotional problems, a history of drug or alcohol use, and prior unwanted births”. These plus culture, personal beliefs, etc. can cause mental health issues regardless of the outcome of the pregnancy.
www.apa.org/releases/abortion-report.html
September 23rd, 2008 at 12:51 am
Jeana, Protestant covers a whole lot of territory. What was included in the Protestant category?
Lutherans? Methodists? Presbyterians? Episcopalians? Anglicans? Baptists? Are there other forms of Protestantism? I have to wonder why the statistics weren't broken down for that group.
Also, does the Catholic classification include both Roman Catholics and Orthodox Catholics?
Then there's the problem of the Other's category. Wiccans? Christian Scientists? Scientologists? Unitarians? Non-Denominationals? Born Agains? Seventh Day Adventists? Mormons?
Does the Others category include Jewish women? I would think as a group they'd be large enough to merit their own category but maybe Jewish women don't have abortions much. I better stop now before Hari's knickers bunch up again...
Anyway that's the problem with many studies and statistics--they are often too vague to be useful.
September 23rd, 2008 at 12:55 am
{ I could care less what you think, but this is a public argument and it is the moral duty of honest and rational people to put forward their views so that visitors don’t assume we are all apologists for rape and murder.}
Claymore, I'm typing this slowly in the hopes that you will read it slowly. THE BOY ISN'T DEAD. If there is an apologist for rape in this conversation it's you, who apparently covets the "right" to sneak into men's houses and ejaculate on their underaged daughters.
{See, there’s another pair of lies- I never called you Andrea Dworkin, another member did, and ive had plenty of disagreements without getting vitriolic, but I have to call it as I see it and the last few days what ive seen aint pretty.}
And once again -- still typing slowly -- I corrected myself, and stated that it was another member using "Andrea Dworkin" as an insult. That still leaves "psychopath, right-wing pinhead, liar, would-be murderers, cowards" as your pet names for traditionalists.
But I give in, since anybody who disagrees with you even over minor issues is obviously all of those things and much worse. I leave you to wallow in your mirror image feminist mindset.
September 23rd, 2008 at 12:57 am
{I’d be willing to bet that’s why she killed herself.}
People, including young people, commit suicide all the time for a wide variety of reasons, ranging from somber to ridiculous. We simply don't have enough information to make an intelligent judgment on this.
September 23rd, 2008 at 12:58 am
There is something that we're not talking about. And that's because it's unseen. The number of pregnancies and abortions that were prevented because of these rules.
I hope we can agree that what happened to this poor girl should never have happened. I hope everyone reading this article agrees that she did not deserve to fall into depression, despair, and suicide. Of course not. However, any discussion of the "authoritarian" nature of those "terrible" rules should include that it is possible the rules actually did benefit the students, including the female students. Take the example of the women who started the clothing company. Would they have been so successful later in life, if one or more of them had had to deal with teenage pregnancy and child rearing, or abortion and its attending likelihood of depression? Is it possible that expulsion was a better deterrent than pregnancy in encouraging them to either practice safe sex or wait until marriage?
It is never possible to know what might have been. If it were, every system of rules would be perfect. But my guess is, that without the rules this school had against pregnancy and abortion, many more young people, most of them women, would have suffered what this unfortunate couple suffered. If that is true (and I realize it is a very big "if"), then as devastating as they were in this specific case, they were good rules. Of course, the opposite is also true--if the rules failed to discourage irresponsible behavior, and had no effect on young peoples' decisions, they were bad rules.
We can never know. So each of us must use judgment and compassion to decide. But our compassion should include not only those who are visibly affected by rules, but those who invisibly fail to be affected, by no rules.
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:01 am
Perspicacious:
The point is that it’s not all (or even mostly) non-religious females having abortions. In my mind, this information shows that religious organizations do a disservice to women. People have sex. That’s a fact of life. I think the emphasis should be on preventing unwanted pregnancies rather than making abortions illegal (just because they’re illegal doesn’t mean that females won’t still seek them out). I think most religious groups are anti-birth control and so, by default, they wind up causing both abortions and unwanted births.
If 78% of females who had abortions did not identify with any religion, that might show that religious groups were actually helping to prevent abortions, at least among their flock. But it’s exactly the opposite. So something is wrong and things need to change. The ultimate goal, in my eyes, is to reduce the number of abortions.
September 23rd, 2008 at 1:06 am
Mark,
If HIV/AIDS doesn’t scare students into not having unprotected sex, I doubt being expelled from school would. I bet the last thing on teens’ minds is, “Oh no, Sister will be sooooooooo mad at me!” right before they do it.
Also, Mark, it was my belief that Catholics and Christians were into forgiveness, like the man they worship preached. I would say that because of the school’s rules, the girl chose an abortion instead of continuing the pregnancy. If the school was accepting and forgiving and made it known that they’d help any girl in need in that situation, I bet that would have made a huge difference in the outcome. But they instead chose to punish. And look at what happened. Aborted embryo/fetus. Dead girl.
September 23rd, 2008 at 2:08 am
As a considerate person you are Jeana,
"But everyone knew, she was publicly humiliated, she was very young and without developed coping skills, undoubtedly other parents didn’t allow their daughters to associate with her, and she probably felt all alone. I’d be willing to bet that’s why she killed herself."
Could you comment on the suicides of young boys? young men? old men?
Do you think you can bet on the reasons why they commit suicide?
September 23rd, 2008 at 2:29 am
Mancan said "People, including young people, commit suicide all the time for a wide variety of reasons, ranging from somber to ridiculous. We simply don't have enough information to make an intelligent judgment on this."
Maybe. But I guess you can never be 100% sure why people do most things. We simply have to look at the most likely scenario, and make an educated guess. In this case, there would seem to be a high probability that the school's actions contributed to it.
To use a different example. If a man who has been screwed over in divorce court, kept from seeing his kids, and been falsely accused, then commits suicide we cannot prove 100% that these events led to the suicide. But there is a strong likelihood they did.
The reason I bring this up is that too often these arguments get used against us. I have seen women's groups run the argument that there is not conclusive evidence to show a relationship between these issues and increased male suicide rates, so we shouldn't be able to bring this up. They will use this logic to weasel out of responsibility.
You are right that a lot of young adults and teenagers commit suicide all the time for various reasons. But that is because they have not yet developed the skills to cope with life's setbacks. The human brain is not fully developed until a person is 25 years old.
September 23rd, 2008 at 2:53 am
Pankaj,
My only point was that the abortion itself was most likely NOT the thing that caused the suicide. But the way she was treated by those who should have had compassion, plus other factors, some of which I mentioned, most likely led to her hanging herself. Many people failed her. Blaming it solely on the abortion is a cop-out.
September 23rd, 2008 at 3:18 am
Ah.. what a surprise! I actually agree with you on that. Still - what does that tell you about the suicides among boys?
September 23rd, 2008 at 4:48 am
sadly i get this feeling that mike hunter and the other feelers may be wind up merchants - otherwise there names have UNCANNY similarities to there attitude and social awareness
however I digress - been expelled for having an abortion would undoubtedly had a massive effect on her.
having that is incredibly import to us as females...it should give us the right to make a choice with out pressure
when that pressure is applied with such for as in the case of this young girl....the effects can be devastating
September 23rd, 2008 at 5:18 am
More than half of all pregnancies end up as miscarriages, which another half are unknown to the mother. This does not include the numerous physical abnormalities and fatalities of fetuses from complications, which can endanger the mother as well--and are not rare.
These problems still arise in a time where mothers have better health care, medicine and larger chances of carrying a child through the entire term. Women used to die all the time from normal complications. Isn't god the biggest abortionist ever?
America has the highest abortion rates than any other developed country(despite the fact that our rates of premarital sex are the same as everyone else), because kids who are exposed to abstinence only education are more than twice as likely to not use protection and become pregnant.
How about we stop outlawing contraception and reduce abortions, instead of pretending kids don't have sex, or that they won't if we tell them not to. This has not been working and the statistics prove it.
Shouldn't we be busy worrying about over population? That is one of our most fatal future obligations.
I doubt we'd be having this conversation if men were the ones who got pregnant. It would be legal and that's it--end of story. And you know it.
p.s. Screw Bible thumpers with their antiabortion rhetoric. The Bible tells you to kill disobedient children and homosexuals. The Bible is not pro life. Thou shal not kill--other jews (with the exception of homosexuals, nonbelievers, people of other faiths, bad kids, witches, adulterers, rape victims who are married, preachers of other faiths, people who screw animals, lairs or anyone else god sees fit for stoning). And Jesus said the old law still matters. Christians also ignore the fact that more people have died in the name of Jesus than any other name in world history. There is little prolife in the name of god.
Go read your Bibles.
September 23rd, 2008 at 6:06 am
Mancan is playing chopsticks on his keyboard…
“Claymore, I'm typing this slowly in the hopes that you will read it slowly. THE BOY ISN'T DEAD.”
One of the many amusing similarities between right wing extremists and feminist extremists is the way that the more you call them on their lies and irrationality the more dishonest and irrational they become! The boy doesn’t need to be dead for you to be an apologist for those who think its okay to kill him. Let’s see if I can get this monosyllabic enough for you to understand.
Man One says “If I had caught that boy in my daughter’s room he would need an autopsy.”
Sensible people say “Oh you horrible man.”
Man Two( that’s you by the way) steps in and defends Man One, acting therefore as an apologist for a man who thinks murder is okay under such circumstances, hence getting himself labeled an apologist for murder.
That’s what happened; if you don’t like the label don’t earn it. Next time before you defend someone think about the consequences of doing so.
“If there is an apologist for rape in this conversation it's you, who apparently covets the "right" to sneak into men's houses and ejaculate on their underaged daughters.”
I do not covet the right to do such a thing- if I want to ejaculate into thin air rather than a warm cavity I need neither a stranger’s house nor an audience to do so. Also, there is no evidence that this is what the boy was doing while standing on the bed -maybe it was, maybe it wasn’t, we don’t know so we cant assert either way. Legally, there would be a big difference between me and this boy- im forty and therefore way outside Florida’s Romeo and Juliet clause. What the boy did, due to their close ages, wasn’t even statutory rape, hence I am not apologizing for a rapist.
“And once again -- still typing slowly -- I corrected myself, and stated that it was another member using "Andrea Dworkin" as an insult.”
Another lie- I corrected you, you did not correct yourself.
“That still leaves "psychopath, right-wing pinhead, liar, would-be murderers, cowards" as your pet names for traditionalists.”
I apply those labels to those who have it coming- traditionalist or progressive. It is obviously possible to be right wing without being any of those things and I’ve never said otherwise. It is also possible to be a left-winger and all those things. For example, I think Obama is a left-wing pinhead and a liar that spreads claptrap about the wage gap.
“But I give in,”
About bloody time too-your repetitiveness is becoming tedious.
“ since anybody who disagrees with you even over minor issues is obviously all of those things and much worse.”
Another lie, again I refer you to the disagreement over who kills spouses more often. No one got called anything unpleasant because it was a genuine intellectual disagreement and he seems to have been right. Also- killin aint no minor issue.
“I leave you to wallow in your mirror image feminist mindset.”
Yes, im a feminist, hence the numerous clashes with jeana, Annie Hunter and Hari, cos we feminists love to hate one another. I’ll put that down to your tyro status rather than dishonesty.
mancan, unless you are going to write something other than a bunch of lies ive already discredited stop wasting my time and go play with someone your own age.
September 23rd, 2008 at 10:31 am
To give my two cents, I like what Derek said.
September 23rd, 2008 at 11:46 am
Nick S Says:
September 23rd, 2008 at 2:29 am
Mancan said "People, including young people, commit suicide all the time for a wide variety of reasons, ranging from somber to ridiculous. We simply don't have enough information to make an intelligent judgment on this."
Maybe.
___________________
There is no maybe about it unless the person who committed suicide left a note stating why. As I said above I had a 33 year old friend who hung himself while he was on a suicide watch in a psychiatric hospital. He had lots of problems. He was an alcoholic involuntarily committed by the courts to the psych hospital to dry out, he had criminal trials awaiting him when he did get out, his wife just filed for divorce, he was just fired from his job by his father who he worked for, he was facing bankruptcy and so on.
He didn't leave a suicide note so his family and friends don't know exactly which of the problems pushed him over the edge. Probably all of them did in a cumulative manner. Same may well be true for all suicides...it isn't just one thing but a series of things. We don't know enough about Elena's life to even attempt to say why she killed herself.
September 23rd, 2008 at 12:13 pm
"Hari, I didn't make up the statistics"
You are spectacularly missing the point. I am not arguing with your statistics, I am saying, in a comparison of groups in one category (religion) you mentioned that black people are the most aborty of all.. religions? Tell me how that makes sense unless you are just chomping at the bit to convey to the world your white supremacy.
September 23rd, 2008 at 12:22 pm
"No non-sequitor involved here, Hari. I was completely on topic. Maybe you can stop policing posts now? You probably should be paying more attention to your own."
I think you should look up non-sequitur. The repost of your post only amounts to you digging yourself a deeper hole. And policing, people here always accuse me of that. I wouldn't have people censor themselves because what they are saying is offensive. I would like people to be aware of how to recognize FLOCKING OBVIOUS prejudice, though. But by all means, continue to spew it.
September 23rd, 2008 at 12:41 pm
jeana Says:
September 23rd, 2008 at 12:51 am
I bet if Elena was in school and no one knew about the abortion she’d be fine. But everyone knew, she was publicly humiliated, she was very young and without developed coping skills, undoubtedly other parents didn’t allow their daughters to associate with her, and she probably felt all alone. I’d be willing to bet that’s why she killed herself.
-----------------------
Right, because you personally knew Elena and her circumstances. For you, every woman is a victim ... and a victim by someone else's hand (though preferably a man).
The fact is none of us here knows why Elena killed herself. All we have is pure hearsay. We heard it from Glenn, who heard it from his former student, Cathy, who heard it from her then-boyfriend, who heard it from his brother who was friends with Elena.
Don't you see how this story could easily get coloured based on the abortion politics of the people doing the reporting?
So quit with the victim olympics.
September 23rd, 2008 at 4:08 pm
Davina,
How do you get “victim Olympics” from what I said? I only made my comment because person after person said that the abortion caused her suicide. And so I found data that said that no, abortions in and of themselves are not the cause of suicides and emotional disturbances. In fact, this fallacy has been used as a reason to take away abortion rights. So I thought it was important to recognize the role of people around Elena including her hypocritical church, in causing her to kill herself.
Don’t you think she is a victim? What exactly has to happen to a female in order for her to be thought of as a victim by you? I think that Elena certainly is a victim.
September 23rd, 2008 at 5:03 pm
"In fact, this fallacy has been used as a reason to take away abortion rights."
If antichoicers admitted that women were capable of having abortions with little or no distress, they would come that much closer to having to admit that following the antichoice logic, more than a quarter of American women are murderers. All but the most asinine AC's soft-pedal that angle.
September 23rd, 2008 at 7:40 pm
Well, did you read the article as posted by Glenn, Jeana? You would have probably seen what I saw, pure speculation on all sides ... from Glenn, his former student, her former boyfriend and perhaps the former boyfriend's brother who was friends with girl.
And there you go again ... saying I said things I didn't say. Did I say Elena wasn't a victim? I didn't. I said you should stop the victim olympics when you said this:
"I bet if Elena was in school and no one knew about the abortion she’d be fine. But everyone knew, she was publicly humiliated, she was very young and without developed coping skills, undoubtedly other parents didn’t allow their daughters to associate with her, and she probably felt all alone. I’d be willing to bet that’s why she killed herself."
How do you know the above? Were you a student at the school? Were you friends with Elena, her peers or her family to know her circumstances to that extent?
Elena is a suicide victim. That is all we know ... factually. Why the suicide occurred will forever a be a mystery to us. It could very well be associated to the abortion and the lost of her social network or it could have been because of something completely different. WE DON'T KNOW.
Unless you're privy to information the rest of us aren't, none of us are qualified to say this girl is the victim of cruel catholics that led her to suicide when they kicked her out of school for having an abortion, taking her away from her friends, her network and ruining her life. We have absolutely no evidence but speculation and hearsay to support or not support that allegation.
No one knows for sure what led to her suicide. People who are pro-choice can easily say what Glenn, his former student and her ex-boyfriend said to further their agenda on abortion. Just like where you said anti-choicers will say that women who've had abortions suffer from depression etc to give some false proof as to why abortions are bad. Here's what you said:
"There really isn’t any greater risk of depression or suicide from abortions than from any other major life change. Only anti-abortion researchers with methodologically flawed studies find linkages. But because they’re not valid, major psychiatric and psychological organizations don’t use them."
Remember that? Not saying it is so, but did it ever occur to you that the same could be true for those (Glenn, the former student, the ex boyfriend, the brother) reporting Elena's fate?
September 23rd, 2008 at 8:05 pm
Davina,
I don’t even know what point you’re trying to make. Right, I don’t know why she killed herself. Apparently no one ever will. But I doubt that it was solely because she had an abortion. I think it was highly likely that many other factors contributed to it, most likely all related to the abortion, but not caused by the abortion. And the research I looked at supports what I said. Others seemed to be of the opinion it was the abortion in and of itself. I don’t think it was. People can be very judgmental, and if a girl is told over and over that she’s a murderer, I’m guessing that could have an effect down the line.
“Remember that? Not saying it is so, but did it ever occur to you that the same could be true for those (Glenn, the former student, the ex boyfriend, the brother) reporting Elena's fate?’
I don’t know what you are asking.
September 24th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Davina, I thought your point was perfectly clear and I got it. I don't think the problem in this case is with the messenger.
September 25th, 2008 at 9:40 am
Well, maybe Perspicasious, you can try to tell me what in God's name Davina is saying, because I don't understand. What does she mean by "the same could be true for those...reporting Elena's fate"? If you know, then tell me.
September 25th, 2008 at 11:28 am
Jeana:
Davina said: Not saying it is so, but did it ever occur to you that the same could be true for those (Glenn, the former student, the ex boyfriend, the brother) reporting Elena's fate?
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I read that to mean that Davina is not saying that her opinion of Elena and her fate is absolutely the right answer and the same could be true for the others she mentioned who attributed Elana's suicide to be the result of her being expelled from school. Basically Davina seems to be underlining her original comment (which I've also expressed) that NOBODY knows for certain why Elena killed herself.
IMO to conjecture as to why anyone commits suicide (unless they leave a note stating the reason) is a futile exercise.
July 10th, 2009 at 12:33 am
When she needed peoples support the most, they turned their backs on her.
July 11th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
I see so many alleged christains judging this poor girl but not one said anything about the boy. You don't sound like Jesus when he met a sinner. It's a good thing you get to make your own god in your image so he can always agree with you.