'The APA has, in fact, heretofore made a significant endorsement of the validity of PAS'
September 30th, 2008 by Glenn Sacks, MA for Fathers & FamiliesOne of the principle arguments of the mothers' advocates who seek to discredit Parental Alienation is to say that it has been "debunked" by professionals in the field. This is simply false.
On Fox's Morning Show with Mike and Juliet last week Dr. Joy Silberg of the anti-father Leadership Council was asked if she believes that Parental Alienation Syndrome exists. She replied:
I really don't, and it isn't just me. All of the major professional organizations--the American Bar Association, the American Psychological Association, the National Council for Juvenile Justices.
I replied:
You're really overstating this--it's not all by any means. There are people within the American Bar Association, people within the American Psychological Association on both sides of the issue. I could give you a long list of mental health professionals and family law attorneys who say this is real.
We dealt with this issue at the time of our successful Campaign Against PBS's Father-Bashing Breaking the Silence in 2005. During the controversy over the film, the film's feminist supporters insisted that Parental Alienation Syndrome had been discredited and attacked by the American Psychological Association.
In the documentary Joan Meier, a professor of clinical law at George Washington University and one of the film's chief spokespersons, stated that PAS "has been thoroughly debunked by the American Psychological Association." Connecticut Public Television, one of the film's producers, put out a press release promoting the film which stated that PAS had been "discredited by the American Psychological Association."
Rhea K. Farberman, Executive Director of Public and Member Communications of the American Psychological Association, publicly retorted that these feminist these claims are "incorrect" and "inaccurate," and that the APA "does not have an official position on parental alienation syndrome--pro or con."
Despite the enormous political pressure put on the APA by misguided women's advocates who oppose PAS, the APA has put out mixed messages about Parental Alienation Syndrome.
During the PBS controversy I asked shared parenting advocate Les Veskrna, MD to write an article for my site sorting out the truth about the APA and PAS. According to Veskrna, "The APA has, in fact, heretofore made a significant endorsement of the validity of PAS."
Read Veskrna's full piece here.
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September 30th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
Besides the APA, are there any other non-partisan, professional organizations that are sitting on the fence like this, or have even come out formally on one side or the other?
September 30th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
One thing about this whole PAS controversy that interests me is how it connects very directly to the adversarial nature of the Family Courts and Divorce Industry.
We hear a lot about what is "good for the children," but the system is a complete sham.
Lawyers encourage the utmost aggression and conflict in a divorce or child custody dispute. Because that is how they maximize their billable hours.
They do not seek to help people mediate or agree in disputes. They seek to prolong the disputes and the interpersonal conflict.
That is where their money comes from.
You cannot in any intelligent way address PAS in a system that depends upon it for profit.
September 30th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
I find Veskrna's document interesting. I find it VERY intriguing that the APA is setting up workshops in which an explanation and definition of PAS is included.
Based on some hints here and there I am sniffing out that possibly the APA may be close to making a final disposition regarding PAS, and that it will be an endorsement.
The feminists are finally having to face one of the enemies of society that THEY have created. In banging their drum loudly and clearly to get things like PTSD and "Learned helplessness" approved, they have (essentially) created a monster.
Now that the APA (and it's constituents: counselors and psychiatrists and psychologist) have become ingrained to drumming up more & more business for themselves by bringing abuse hysteria to a thunderous crescendo, these organizations may be prepared to break "off the leash" of feminists control.
Now that they have a new malady that allows them to close the lid on the entire populace (when you add in PTSD, "Learned Helplessness" against dads, and ADD or ADHD against children). Now the APA has a chance to "grow" their business (government mandated if necessary) by including mothers, feminists should be very afraid.
This will come to be the greatest downfall of feminists in the near future I believe: these organizations (that were previously bed-fellows of extreme feminist leaders/organizations) who have ****HUGE*** incentive growing the abuse industry/hysteria breaking off the feminist leash to also demonize women/and mothers.
The other big obstacle to the feminist juggernaut is that it is so fragmented. Black women are divisive and screaming that mainstream feminism doesn't represent them, ditto lesbian and trans-gendered women.
I use the term juggernaut because that's what they are. They are very very entrenched.
But their own bed-fellow organizations may (and will I'm betting) prove to be their undoing as these ogranizations have very different long-term goals.
Everybody knows the story of David and Goliath. And Ms. Goliath will fall, thanks to the greed and avarice of those the feminists have allied themselves with.
As it comes to be more and more evant-garde and "anti-establishment" to be pro-father, many more authors, doctors, mental wellness professionals, and even celebrities will join our camp.
HEY! ARE YOU LISTENING CLAUDIA? Don't ask for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for you!
September 30th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
I am getting very nervous about how the mental health professions are increasingly being hijacked by ideologues. I gave up my membership in the National Association of Social Workers (NASW) years ago over the extreme partisanship I was seeing -- not simply over d/v and PAS, but over a whole range of issues from universal health care to education. Family therapy is, sadly, one of the fields that is hardest hit by this problem right now. We need to encourage sane, moderate, male-friendly mental health professionals to speak out and let the world know that a small, aggressive group of extremists does not speak for all of us. We need to build & fund programs that give support to men & women in equal numbers, and we have to contribute original thinking and research that is not colored by an agenda of intolerance.
September 30th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
Is there any question that one person can damage another by spreading false and damaging statements about the other person?
Isn't it called "slander" and "defamation"?
If I falsely call a former employee an alcoholic and substance abuser when a new employer is checking his reference, isn't that wrong?
But once again, in the nutty world of family court, we have to take every pre-existing class of crime, and every pre-existing class of tort, and give it a special treatment, giving rise to loads of legal fees for bumbling lawyers, not to mention "whore of the court" experts of every stripe.
But one thing America is very careful to NOT allow in family court is what every person outside of "family court" who is accused of a tort like defamation, or a crime like battery, does get?
What's that? A jury.
Wonder why?
I wonder how long family court would last as a venue for arguing about whether defaming a parent in front of a child is actual defamation or not if juries were allowed on these cases?
Not long. The citizens would shut it down, just like they will shut it down in the not too distant future in this fraudulently named "land of the free".
September 30th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
Well, as we witnessed with the rather rapid demise of the Soviet Union, ideologies have a shelf life.
I think feminism has just about arrived at its expiration date.
Soon --- maybe next week.... capitalism gets to ponder the inevitability of its extinction.
Then maybe we will have to stop shopping and figure out our futures.
September 30th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
Roy, the shelf-life of capitalism is the shelf-life of the greed of individuals within society. That is to say, exceptionally long. The half-life has yet to be quantifiable.
September 30th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
Rubic,
What happened to all the good Christians?
You know, the ones that believe in what Jesus actually advised?
"Treat others as you wish to be treated?"
Something like that. I never believed that Christ was anything other than a very angry potential revolutionary.
Someone foolish told me he is coming back some day.
That would be like a very bad performance by Billy Joel.
September 30th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
Ahh yes! The feminists always resort to the same tactic. They get someone to agree with their position and then they try to make a broad generalizion to the whole population. In some societies this is known as discrimination.
The feminists did this with- walk- away Dads and now everyone is treated as a walk-away Dad.
The feminists get someone to say their is no Parental Alienation and that becomes their Mantra!
September 30th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
Feminists are your enemies.
September 30th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
They are also my enemies.
September 30th, 2008 at 4:47 pm
roy Says:
September 30th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
What happened to all the good Christians?
My response: They converted to capitalism and socialism.
roy says: You know, the ones that believe in what Jesus actually advised?
"Treat others as you wish to be treated?"
My response: Like "Put down your things and follow Me?" Most people didn't follow.
roy says: Something like that. I never believed that Christ was anything other than a very angry potential revolutionary.
My response: Angry? The only instance I know of Christ being angry is when he threw the money changers out of the temple. Interesting that.
roy says: Someone foolish told me he is coming back some day.
My response: Foolishness is often in the eye of the beholder.
roy says: That would be like a very bad performance by Billy Joel.
My response: Huh?
September 30th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
I'm thankful that Glenn was able to share this information with us. Now we have a rebut for the "but"s,
I chose my name because it reminds me that it is really all about time. But with PAS and shared parenting where the issues are directly related about time, the rebuttals against them are continuosly concern money (child support) and DV (domestic violence). They are continually changing the topic so that they do not have to address the reall issue.
NOW if only we could see a reBUTTal to that statement.
It's ...
FatherTIME
September 30th, 2008 at 5:32 pm
"But with PAS and shared parenting where the issues are directly related about time,"
"issues are about time" or "directly related to time"
I couldn't make up my mind so I mashed them together. Sorry.
It's still...
FatherTIME
September 30th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
These days, if you do not hold the line of "women as victim" group think, youre work/ school/ social environment will be hostile against you.
September 30th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
Something occured to me today. Nearly every court in this counrty now requires some type of divorce "Orientation" program when children are involved. These programs came about to "educate" clients of the family court system on the issues that the courts see new clients having a lack of undestanding of the expectations of the family law system. The agenda for these programs nearly all cover how alienating behavior by either parent is unacceptable behavior. I think this is a good example of how prevelant alienating behavior occurs in divorce cases since this is a topic covered in these divorce orienation programs.
Maybe it would be a good idea to target getting penaties for making false allegations added into the agendas for these Divorce Orientation program agendas.
September 30th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
Roy, to believe in God or to believe there is not a God are still just unverifiable beliefs. it's not feminists, but the NOW feminists who envy men and wish to subject and enslave them to their will. PA is very real as I have posted earlier. Wiomen have bathed themselves in the victim role for all time. They dream Prince Charming will rescue them from whatever dragon they face.and are hurt when the Prince Charming who rescues them is not the heir to the throne.
September 30th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
My very favorite Jesus movie is the Italian flick, "The Gospel According to Saint Matthew."
It depicts the Christ as a dark skinned insurrectionary with a nasty temper and a tendency to trash the mall.
"Relating his facts in straight-on documentary fashion, Pier Paolo Pasolini's 1964 Biblical film stars Enrique Irazoqui as Jesus. In it, Christ and his followers are depicted as gentle radicals working against the grain of the unjust Roman power structure."
It is a clever Marxist interpretation of Christ, which is very appealing.
The movie takes the love out of the narrative, and shows how Jesus was very intelligent about the politics of power.
Of course, everybody knows how the story ended.
Some people believe it has not ended yet.
September 30th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
I should admit, I quit going to church when I was twelve.
It was too insulting to listen to all the silly poorly told stories about salvation.
I always wondered -- "Saved? From what?" Oh, original sin? Cute racket.
My favorite Catholic mythology was about "limbo." Where all the unbaptized dead babies go to live. Like a bus station but the bus never arrives....
That sent me running out the door when I realized that people could believe that.
Never been back. Never will.
September 30th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
You mean the feminist lied? Shock...horror...
September 30th, 2008 at 8:02 pm
God or no God is irrelevant. PA is what this is about. PA is real, because I and many others have suffered from it. NOW feminists are evil under a God and should be eliminated under a Darwinian approach by the need for males to survive. If the NOW feminists succeed, any social arrangement they have will be destroyed by a competing male dominated aggressor. Atilla the Hun was real and Rome was sacked. Fantasy is always destroyed by nature.
September 30th, 2008 at 8:37 pm
A very interesting and well written article.
September 30th, 2008 at 9:39 pm
"I always wondered -- "Saved? From what?" Oh, original sin? Cute racket." - roy
I wish God didn't punish people for the sins of someone else. It makes it pretty hard to get into heaven. "I am a vengeful God." - he ain't kiddin'
"For God so loved the world he gave is only begotten son" So sinners that he took immortality from could have "ever lasting life" in heaven but still die anyway. Adam his creation - but Jesus, born from his creation is his son and more valued than the world he loved so much?
Note to self: That's enough.
September 30th, 2008 at 9:46 pm
roy Says:
September 30th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
I should admit, I quit going to church when I was twelve.
My response: I quit going to church when I was 13 and graduated from grade school. I told my mother I'd served my time. Since she wasn't a Catholic she didn't make too much of it.
Oddly enough I returned to the Catholic church 2 years ago. The odd part is that it was feminism that turned me back onto the Catholic church. They are anti-feminist for the most part and I liked that they stood up to women and said no to female priests and changing the liturgy to being female inclusive... you know, Father/Mother God and all that BS.
I really liked the idea of some organization saying no to both feminists and women in general who were looking to change tradition. In the process of returning to the Church I found that I'd been missing something special for all those years I'd been away. I really felt like I'd come back home.
roy says: It was too insulting to listen to all the silly poorly told stories about salvation.
My response: My mileage varies.
roy says: I always wondered -- "Saved? From what?" Oh, original sin? Cute racket.
My response: Original Sin means nothing more than being born human and suspect to the human frailties. I understand you don't believe but I don't think it's a racket.
roy says: My favorite Catholic mythology was about "limbo." Where all the unbaptized dead babies go to live. Like a bus station but the bus never arrives....
My response: I was taught that, too. I don't really believe in it though I suppose as a Catholic I'm supposed to. Anyway it beat the idea of sending those poor dead babies straight to hell.
roy says: Never been back. Never will.
My response: I'm glad I returned.
September 30th, 2008 at 10:49 pm
Roy and all the others, this isn't about religion. This is about NOW feminists taking our children and trying to enslave us. Marriage is a two way street; we give and care for our wives and family and they give and care for us. Once this bargain is broken, neither the man nor the woman owes anything to it. The children are just an excuse the women use to enrich themselves. The woman's nightmare is that the children wait for what the father gives them. Women want the fathers to give to them and then they give to the children. Bad deal for fathers; fathers want to give directly, without the middle woman. Sorry NOW.
October 1st, 2008 at 6:51 am
Glenn, that was an excellent response to that obvious overstatement. I cheered when I heard you say that!
BC
October 1st, 2008 at 10:40 am
In this comment list Roy at #2 looked at the similarity of PAS and the operations of Family court.
Yes, read Anne Wilson Schaef, When Society Becomes an Addict, Harper and Row, 1986. She too had said it was a white male system that did it all to women. Then she realized that these males ultimately implode.
I concur that family court and all its attendant participants and processes have become addicted. Therefore it refuses to see Parental Alienation because parental alienation is a process exaclty the same as those with which they engage themselves.
Even the most powerful like Fulbright and Jaworski, Llp participate in this at the behest of Justice for Children.
Its just another version of all thats wrong with America and the health of this planet.
October 1st, 2008 at 11:00 am
perspicacious --- "I'm glad I returned."
You have not returned. You have merely arrived for the first time.
I truly hope all these superstitions that you are adopting as beliefs will help you in some way.
I still possess the voodoo doll that a Haitian village witchdoctor made to try to kill my grandfather. It even has some of his hair on it, which was snipped off while he was sleeping after a hard day of fighting in 1926.
It is a very Christ-like wooden figure, with some obvious African influences.
Everybody needs some kind of faith I guess.
Mine is to try to see things as clearly as possible, and always distrust any form of authority.
But I did really like this witch in Grenada who lived in St. David's parish in a tiny little shack on the path I used to go to the sea for a swim.
She was at least 80 years old and used to let me shelter in her little two room cabin when it was raining. I would bring her food and we would talk until the rain stopped.
She claimed she had raised twelve orphans in her life, and had to raise one more before she died.
That old woman taught me a lot about "faith."
October 1st, 2008 at 1:25 pm
Another example of feminists putting politics and ideology ahead of the truth. Someday the general public will figure it out, and once they do it's all over for feminists.
October 1st, 2008 at 2:30 pm
Whether or not Joy Silberg can admit it, PAS is real and it is felt by thousands if not millions of people. Perhaps if we gave PAS a different name she would feel better about it or less threatened. In the mean time we need to come up with name for the syndrome Ms. Silberg and many other feminists seem to suffer from. How about denial?
October 1st, 2008 at 9:13 pm
Found an interesting article on PAS.
An excerpt from:
http://www.divorcemag.com/articles/Parental-Alienation-Syndrome/causes-cures-costs-controversy.html
Polarized, "win/lose" thinking is systemic to our society. There are those who live with the certainty of right and wrong -- what is true or false, black or white. People who think in absolutes can easily find others who think as they do. Together they are able to reinforce each other's beliefs and present a united front about what they perceive as true. "Rigor mortis of the brain cells" has been used to describe their stuck position. Their calcified thinking does not allow them to be bothered with exceptions. The complex issues around PA/PAS invite simplistic thinking. Many people seem to need someone else to do their thinking for them. It is easy to jump on the bandwagon of highly charged issues such as preventing the sexual molestation of children and ending domestic violence. Gender wars are common; one gender sees the other as the enemy. The issue is about human rights, protecting not only children's rights, but also mother's and father's rights. It is about being fair and logical and letting reason, not drama, make appropriate decisions.
Unfortunately, much of the domestic violence community focuses only on violence perpetrated by men, rather than also including the violence perpetrated by women against fathers and children. Violence is wrong, no matter who is committing it. The result is that domestic violence has been turned into a gender issue, when the truth is that both men and women are capable of doing serious damage to their children and to each other.
Conclusion
It is unfortunate that too many people will believe a dramatic story more than they will listen to evidence. Drama is the hallmark of people who are psychologically disturbed. Individuals with these severe mental health issues are under-diagnosed. We need more research and clarity on the effects of PA/PAS. The costs are staggering to children, the target parent, and that person's family. The damage is severe and has long-reaching effects.
The whole fabric of our society is undermined by the behaviors of these severely disturbed individuals. Both men and women with obsessed thinking create PA/PAS situations with children and their target parent. Their irresponsible behaviors siphon off a staggering amount of social resources to stabilize the chaos they create. Any protocol that we use for the regular population is woefully inadequate in making them normal. Every year, hundreds of thousands of children and parents are experiencing the phenomenon of PA/PAS and the resulting devastation it causes. Millions of people are ending up damaged because, up to now, we have not even recognized the phenomenon or truly considered its impact. We all need to take action to educate and help people who have this terrible problem that does such severe damage to children.
October 1st, 2008 at 10:26 pm
Quote from Dave's Posted Article:
The whole fabric of our society is undermined by the behaviors of these severely disturbed individuals.
My thought: It may not be in the public's best interest to categorize those who engage in PAS as "disturbed" as in mentally ill. In fact, I doubt few people with established mental illnesses such as depression, bipolar, or schizophrenia are capable of engineering a successful PAS campaign.
Rather it is people with personality disorders who tend to gravitate towards PAS, false accusations, and such IMO. Personality disorders are things like Narcissism, Sociopathy, Borderline Personalities, and such.
The distinction is important for another reason. Most mental illnesses today are highly treatable. My understanding is that there is still no successful treatment for personality disorders and most are highly untreatable due to the nature of the disorder.
People with mental illness feel awful and want to get better. Generally speaking those with personality disorders do not think anything is wrong with them...it is everyone else who is wrong or a problem. Therefore they don't feel a need to get treated and since they seldom feel awful, they don't have an incentive to try to work with a therapist in treatment.
One hallmark of nearly all the personality disorders is that those disordered people lack any empathy for the suffering of others, hence they are very dangerous especially to those closest to them like small children.
Quote from Dave's Posted Article: Both men and women with obsessed thinking create PA/PAS situations with children and their target parent.
My thought: It is all well and good for those who worship at the alter of PCism to insist on "equalizing" problems when it benefits women to do so. However, it is clear that the vast majority of PAS is committed on children by their custodial parent who almost always is the mother. To make light of this or brush it under the carpet with a glib sort of "everyone does it" does disservice to the truth, the root problem, and to the victims who are mostly children who are brainwashed.
Yes, fathers suffer greatly as well but they are not forever caught up in irrational and controlled thinking. Not all children are so psychologically stymied for a lifetime but I suspect the majority never are able to get past the brainwashing they experienced in their formative years.
Quote from Dave's Posted Article: Their irresponsible behaviors siphon off a staggering amount of social resources to stabilize the chaos they create. Any protocol that we use for the regular population is woefully inadequate in making them normal.
My thought: Here I think the author is vaguely backing up my thoughts about personality disordered people. It is a fact that any rules set for the regular (normal) population will not work on disordered people.
As for such measures being "woefully inadequate in making them normal" that is either a huge understatement or a complete cop out. Personality disordered people such as Narcissists and Sociopaths can never be "made normal." Talk therapy doesn't work and neither does psychotropic drugs.
Even jail does not work on such people which is why so many paroled criminals wind up right back in jail. This is just my opinion, but I think the worst thing society can do in dealing with personality disordered people is to ignore their criminality or even worse, sanction it and allow them to continue on with their bad behavior.
Quote from Dave's Posted Article: Every year, hundreds of thousands of children and parents are experiencing the phenomenon of PA/PAS and the resulting devastation it causes. Millions of people are ending up damaged because, up to now, we have not even recognized the phenomenon or truly considered its impact. We all need to take action to educate and help people who have this terrible problem that does such severe damage to children.
My thought: This paragraph started out great and I thought it was headed in the right direction until I read the last few words which are: "and help people who have this terrible problem."
This IMO is a complete cop out for the reasons I stated above. "Help" as in therapy and drugs doesn't work on these people who BTW are NOT the victims in this issue. My opinion remains that the worst thing society can do is allow these people to get away with their behavior scot free or worse sanction it with a legal blessing of some sort or other.
While jail doesn't doesn't cure personality disorders either, it does at least for a while take these people out of society and isolate them so that they cannot continue to victimize others.
October 1st, 2008 at 11:48 pm
Some people have made comments above indicating they think the APA is fair and non-partisan. Guys, you have a lot to learn about the APA. Let's see what they have to say concerning accusations of DV during custody battles. In the excerpt below from "Taken Into Custody", author Steven Baskerville is discussing how accusations of DV made by the woman during custody battles, are used by feminists and the State to remove fathers from their children:
In the paragraph below, I quote the APA with comments by Baskerville in brackets:
"A large proportion of purported domestic violence happens after the partners are separated [that is true]. Since threats and violence are control strategies used by the batterer, the woman's leaving may threaten his sense of power and increase his need to control the woman and children [what it certainly does threaten is the safety and well-being of his children and his natural desire to see them protected and cared for]. Child custody and visitation arranngements also may become an ongoing scenario for intimidation, threats,violent behaviour. Threats may be made to hurt the children and other family members. [these blanket assertions of what "may" happen are a favorite device for smearing innocent citizens who have been neither convicted nor charged with any legal infraction and are guilty of nothing more than wanting their children back, since of course anything "may" be true]. Fathers who batter their children's mothers can be expected to use abusive power and control techiques to control the children, too." [not violence exactly, if one reads carefully, just "power and control techniques"]
In the next paragraph, Baskerville himself then comments further: "Can fathers 'be expected' to want to control their children because controlling one's children is part of what parenthood is all about? Do 'techniques to control children' now constitute crimes? Or do these terms mean perhaps having their children within their care and protection or exercising ordinary parental discipline? Insisting that they go to bed or arrive at school on time, that they brush their hair and teeth, that they be taught basic civility and manners, or any of the other basic tasks of parenthood that are generally neglected in the children of divorce? Might they mean protecting the children from the neglect from the abuse that (as we will see shortly) is most likely in precisely the kind of single-mother home that is being created?"
October 1st, 2008 at 11:55 pm
A journal of the American Psychological Association once published a cover story belittling the importance of fathers. The article, "Deconstructing the Essential Father", appeared in American Psychologist (June 1999; authored by Louise Silverstein and Carl Auerbach).
October 2nd, 2008 at 12:10 am
perpispacious says,
"the victims who are mostly children who are brainwashed.
"Yes, fathers suffer greatly as well but they are not forever caught up in irrational and controlled thinking. Not all children are so psychologically stymied for a lifetime but I suspect the majority never are able to get past the brainwashing they experienced in their formative years. "
Sorry, I'd have to disagree that the children and not the fathers are the primary "victims" of PA/PAS, at least not based on your above logic, which is flawed - it doesn't take into account that an effectively "brainwashed" person theoretically has no doubt or internal conflict over their beliefs; they have no idea of the truth so they "don't know what they're missing". (as far as any damage due to being "controlled" itself, that could just as well happen to anyone in any relationship and is not peculiar to PA per se).
The children are victims because they have been denied a father. That is 99% of the damage; as is usually the case, reality is more important than perception. (Though of course due to their negative perception of the father, they may never seek him out even after they have come of age and left home. But even then it's the reality that's important: they will never know their fathers).
October 2nd, 2008 at 12:29 am
Dave,
in your comment above, you attempt to somehow associate "certainty of right and wrong" with a host of phenomena such as "simple thinking", people letting others make their decisions for them,etc. It sounds like you have a pretty big chip on your shoulder about the concept of truth, and some peoples' ability to be more objective than others?
Actually if you take a step back, you might realize that one thing that has led us to our current dire situation is the kind of mamby-pamby, "everything's relative", "Standard Social Science Model" therapized feminized psychology which we as a society have been relentlessly subjected to for the last 45 years. In fact this kind of thinking has led us to call even things that are commone sense, such as the idea of one parent getting their kids to believe nasty things about the other, a "syndrome".
It's a sign of the times that people are in such denial over the value of being objective,that we depend on labelling something a certain way to restore it to our collective conscious (and not coincidentally, the people who designate names for these "syndromes" are the same people who speak out so vociferously against "labelling")
October 2nd, 2008 at 1:48 am
My own kids were alienated as well. PAS is very real alright. Even their mother got hit hard with the nasty and devastating effects from PAS which backfire on all moms or dads who become committed to engaging in this form of child abuse.
I know that most don't care about dads and their kids, but for the sake of these mothers, shouldn't we at least be uniting against PAS and giving it great credence to protect the mothers for the ill effects of PAS along with their children? It becomes too clear that it isn't just dads that nobody in the "protection" industry gives a care about, but they don't care about moms or children either. That just doesn't fit their agenda.
My daughter who was closest to me became the biggest target for obvious reasons. The alienation was highly supported by the judge, as usual, and by all his surrounding ring of criminals, con artists and ignorant dupes.
Besides the bad effects from her mom and grandparents, my daughter would get into major trouble at school after each visit to the court appointed counselor. The billings matched with her expulsions from school. She would explode at me and at her teachers and schoolmates more severely after visits to the court's chosen counselor. Most educators just don't get what surrounds them daily - and it's sure not bad dads.
The counseling centered on "helping" my duaghter deal with her horrible father... She paid dearly for that too. These are worse than gang rapists of children.
Three of my kids became so out of control from this and other abuse that their mom and grandparents could not stand them or deal with them any longer due to the horrible effects of all the abuse, especially the alienation.
My kids came to live with me as teens. The affects from the alienation did not fade so fast, and still linger and rage on at times. They can also have delusional-like effects from this severe brainwashing - PAS which "doesn't exist."
The PAS still devastates my grown kids and may always. The effects have become lessened over time, but not enough. No counselor would touch treating this or even stopping it, but so many have been very anxious to help abuse my children and so many other children.
As many psychologists have said, PAS is real and it can have worse and longer lasting effects than molestation. Psychologists are an odd bunch, so often at odds with each other. Some are really great while others aren't worth your attention. Still, others are the most deranged mass child abusers and sociopaths imaginable. These are the ones who can't earn a living on their own, just make things worse and must incorporate with likewise parasitic courts and all the other deranged hangers on in order to make a living.
Just imagine this same thing with PAS happening with molestation. Not just denial and refusal to help and stop it, but those entrusted to help actually joining in and participating in gang raping millions of children in this way.
I'm not sure who is brainwashed worse, the child victims of PAS or all those who are "educated" using VAWA funds. There are also so many who are brainwashed into rabidly supporting this most heinous form of child abuse and thinking they are doing good.
October 2nd, 2008 at 6:14 am
Norman L. Says:
"in your comment above, you attempt to somehow associate 'certainty of right and wrong' with a host of phenomena such as 'simple thinking', people letting others make their decisions for them,etc. It sounds like you have a pretty big chip on your shoulder about the concept of truth, and some peoples' ability to be more objective than others?"
Nope, not at all. First of all, that is a quote from the article. I don't agree with every sentence the author states, however, I do believe that she has got it right about how many people in the domestic violence industry use "simplistic thinking" with regards to PA/PAS. Like she says, "It is easy to jump on the bandwagon of highly charged issues such as preventing the sexual molestation of children and ending domestic violence" and then claim that all fathers who claim to be victims of PAS are abusive. "Their calcified thinking does not allow them to be bothered with exceptions." Isn't this precisely what we see hapening?
As the author states, "The issue is about human rights, protecting not only children's rights, but also mother's and father's rights. It is about being fair and logical and letting reason, not drama, make appropriate decisions."
October 2nd, 2008 at 1:46 pm
Dave,
sorry - yes I re-read the original comment and see you are quoting someone else. Sometimes I get carried away with philosophical issues..
But on topic..I'd be a little concerned about where the author effectively says, that fathers who claim to be victims of PAS and are not abusive, are "exceptions"! (assuming I'm reading it correctly).
October 2nd, 2008 at 1:50 pm
That's probably better worded as, "the author effectively says that among fathers claiming PAS, the ones who are not abusive are exceptions."
October 3rd, 2008 at 6:01 pm
That's probably better worded as, "the author effectively says that among fathers claiming PAS, the ones who are not abusive are exceptions."
Which justifies their desire just assume they are all abusers because "in the best interests of the children" it better to err on the side of caution. Meaning that instead of actually giving the father a fair chance its best to just assume he is lying about PA and is only after custody and on the odd chance he really was alientated they will just say "that he probably did something to deserve it" (because we all know that the ONLY reason women commit evil is because some man made her do it and therefore he deserves it).
November 3rd, 2009 at 1:20 pm
wow. guys this happened to me bigtime. she took my son three times, i moved to be near him twice, losing payrate, home, stability, finally she moved clear across the country, havent seen him for 25 years, dont know where he is or how to contact him. net result for me; loss of everything, self esteem, financial viability, cultural acceptance. but mostly i just miss my son real bad. that they have managed to institutionalize this and get funding from the government to perpetrate, this crime against children, men and women, must be brought into the light.
November 4th, 2009 at 8:32 am
I think PA is primarily a side-effect -- just one of several possible manifestations -- of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, which is already in the DSM.
Since one of the hallmarks of that disorder is the inability to maintain relationships, it should be expected that people with this condition will end up in divorce at some point.
Another concern of the condition is the damaging effects it has on children, therefore it should be one of the first things psychologists look for when doing custody evaluations.
Unfortunately, it is usually not, which implies that the truth is really not the primary motivation in such matters.
November 8th, 2009 at 9:47 am
[...] Lyon did a pretty good job with the article but her assertions about Parental Alienation and the American Psychological Association are incomplete. She wrote "The American Psychological Association has issued a statement that 'there is no evidence within the psychological literature of a diagnosable parental alienation syndrome.'" Yet the APA has given mixed messages on PAS–to learn more, click here. [...]