Disgraceful Japanese Video Game Glorifies Rape
May 15th, 2009 by Robert Franklin, Esq.
I'm all for freedom of speech. It's always easy for governments to find reasons to shut people up when they find their messages inconvenient. I don't trust that, so I always err on the side of free expression where possible.
But here's a video game called RapeLay that's made in Japan. Apparently it's all about stalking and violently raping women and girls. I guess you get points for doing those things, and I find that disgraceful. I'm not saying there should be a governmental ban on the games. I'm not entirely certain such a thing would pass First Amendment scrutiny, given that the game doesn't (I assume) attempt to incite people to go out immediately and start raping women.
So, leaving the state and federal governments out of it, I think there's nothing wrong with joining the other organizations that are boycotting the game. Amazon.com removed it from its website back in February. I'd like readers to find out if there's a U.S. distributor/marketer for the game. If so, they should be deluged with anti-RapeLay emails.
The company rep for the manufacturer Illusion, quoted in this article claims the game is not being sold in this country (ABC, 5/8/09). I suppose that means Amazon was the only vendor for it in this country, but it would be interesting to find out.
I'm the first to say that I don't know from videogames. They've never held a bit of interest for me. But I know that there are plenty of them that glorify violence and that a lot of the violence that's depicted is against men. Now, if I oppose the sale of RapeLay, why shouldn't I oppose the sale of videogames or movies or whatever that depict violence against men as appropriate? And if I oppose those, doesn't that make me a tad school-marmish? I mean, what am I, in my righteous zeal, going to tell you I don't want you to watch next, The Searchers?
Those are all good questions. And I suppose I answer them this way:
Most movies (like I said, I don't know from videogames) ultimately present a pretty clear moral code. In most, there are good guys and bad guys, however subtlely (or not so subtlely) depicted. So when a good guy (or gal) gets hurt, it's meant to be seen as a bad thing; when a bad guy gets hurt, he's getting his due.
Richard III is a clear example. When Crookback Dick has the little princes murdered in the tower to pave his way to the throne, Shakespeare is not glorifying the violence done to them; he's condemning it, because we long ago figured Richard out to be the most loathesome of villains.
However they come packaged, most drama that includes violence takes a pretty clear moral stance on the subject. Few are the plays, movies, etc. that allow a villain to injure an innocent without at least tacit condemnation.
Of course there are plenty of bad guys who win in the end, but even those, by presenting a world in which virtue doesn't triumph, still comment on that. And what they say in a wide variety of ways is that such a world is less than it should be. In Clint Eastwood's Unforgiven, there is very little virtue and the clear import is that, while that may be the world we live in, it's not a good situation. As edgy as Fight Club is in the beginning, it ultimately condemns nihilism and destruction.
And that, I think is the difference between RapeLay and other videogames. Rapelay, from what I can gather, rewards the rape and injuring of women regardless of their moral standing. In short, it glorifies violence because it gives points for injuring those who don't "deserve" it. To the extent other videogames' depiction of violence constitutes an amoral stand, I'd condemn them too.
Thanks to Greg for the heads-up.
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May 15th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
The oddest factoid I learned about Japan was the largest consumers of rape porn are Japanese women. I don't get it to this day and from what I understand Japan by most standards has a low rate of rape.
May 15th, 2009 at 6:56 pm
This Japanese video game is NOT hot off the press. It's old news. I'm really surprised, but glad, that Franklin has made this horrible video an issue in an MRA room!
The market for this video is MEN ..... duh.
What do you guys have to say NOW about men's attitudes towards rape? .... is it only a fantasy? Don't you believe that this type video promotes RAPE?
May 15th, 2009 at 7:00 pm
Robert, there are many video games where you can play a villain and be rewarded for being good at being a villain. The moral code you talk about may still exist in movies but it is gone from video games.
RapeLay, as you describe it, sounds like a product I would in no way support. However, I think if an mra was going to actively oppose it, the message should be something like; "This is what you get when you have an anti-male society, males start acting anti-social. Women are reaping what they have sowed for supporting the bigotry called Feminism."
May 15th, 2009 at 7:11 pm
Many US pulp romance novels, overwhelming purchased by women, feature rape themes. I believe in Sweet, Savage Love, one of the best-selling of all time, the heroine ends up marrying her rapist. Check out the plot line of An Officer and A Gentleman, and see what sort of message it might send to young men. I remember back several decades ago reading a fictional short story in a woman’s magazine (sorry, don’t remember which one, I was probably waiting in a dentist’s office or something) about a woman on her honeymoon in Finland that was raped and kidnapped into a local group, and the wonderful, authentic life she enjoyed, freed from her stifling, boring new husband, learning how to ski on her wooden skis better than she ever could on her Head skis back in the US (that’s how long ago it was- Head’s were the hot skis!). I remember finding this confusing at the time.
Back to the video game- we have several video games depicting people (typically men) getting killed right and left. Banning a video game because it featured rape would reinforce the notion that a violent, horrible, yet non-fatal, crime against a woman is more deserving of protection than a violent, horrible, fatal crime against a man. So, what’s new?
Japanese culture embraces many alternative (non-marriage, basically commercial) arrangements, which I can't help but imagine obviate some of the problems. My understanding is that it's not terribly uncommon for a Japanese college student to earn extra money on the side this way. Here in California, several have noted the increase in the number of postings in Craigslist's now-defunct erotic services (CL-ES) section during semester breaks of the local colleges. The estimates of participation rates that I have seen are rather high. The first time I became aware of CL-ES, I recognized one "provider" as a woman who worked acoss the hall, and another who was the sister of our recptionist. Small world. Hopefully, rapes will not spike in response to Craigslist pulling the plug on ES.
May 15th, 2009 at 7:12 pm
I agree with Robert. I find the idea of this game appaling.
May 15th, 2009 at 7:24 pm
"The oddest factoid I learned about Japan was the largest consumers of rape porn are Japanese women."
Maybe this is because many Japanese men are consorting with co-eds. I dunno. I don't claim to understand this any more than I understand American women's fascination with pulp romance novels. Perhaps one of the women on this board could explain these two, cross-cultural, phenomena. And if you dispute them, please provide a citation to facts supporting your assertion.
"One of nature's biggest jokes on humans is that women discover they have a sex drive at about the same age that men discover they have a favorite chair."- Unknown
May 15th, 2009 at 7:33 pm
It's just a game.
I've ordered many atrocities within videogames that i would never do in real life. That's part of the fun, man.
May 15th, 2009 at 7:40 pm
I am obviously against any game that has any rape in it and I also really don’t like the realistic murdering ones either. I can’t say if all the murdering ones give you points for killing only bad guys, but I think they do.
I understand what you mean by the bad guys getting their due in other violent games (i.e. getting shot), but I don’t think that even if the women and girls were evil in this game that it would be ok to have such a game. To me it would be like watching torture. Even if you’re bad, both torture and rape are still wrong.
I remember reading a while time ago about another video game made in the US, I think, that was a cowboys and Indians game, and if you reached the end, you got to rape an Indian (Native American) female. They either changed the game or took it off the market because of the outcry.
The real question is WHAT KIND OF SICKO WOULD THINK OF SOMETHING LIKE THIS?
May 15th, 2009 at 7:54 pm
ted bundy?
May 15th, 2009 at 8:01 pm
SerenityNow, in the book "Sweet, Savage Love" where the victim marries her rapist, is this story true .... or is it fiction?
May 15th, 2009 at 8:07 pm
Rape is to a woman, what Cuckoldry is to a man.
In both cases an interloper forces you to a lifetime of parenthood for DNA that you don't want. It is a violation of Darwinian scope.
Rape is horrible, and its a good thing that it is outlawed.
Cuckoldry though, thanks "equitable paternity", seems to be condoned by law.
This needs to change.
May 15th, 2009 at 8:07 pm
ChrisPCD says, "It's just a game. I've ordered many atrocities within videogames that i would never do in real life. That's part of the fun, man."
Part of the fun?
Oh wow, how do i get on the mailing list?! Or is it a MAN type thing.
May 15th, 2009 at 8:13 pm
Cuckoldry?
First of all, what does it mean?
and what are the statistics on women committing "cuckoldries"?
Sounds to me like cleaning fish.
May 15th, 2009 at 8:14 pm
Sweet Savage Love is fiction, as in "pulp fiction", 636 pages, written by Rosemary Rogers (Avon, 1974), in its 37th printing, not to be confused with "Sweeter Savage Love" by Sandra Hill. Enjoy!
I have an acquaintance who reads this stuff, and she confirms that rape fantasy is a common theme in these "romance" novels. As I said before, I do not claim to understand this, and look forward to illumination. The sales numbers do not lie.
May 15th, 2009 at 8:18 pm
tres interasante
May 15th, 2009 at 8:18 pm
I think those of you who are so vehemently opposed to this game should read this review of it: http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/review/R132934.html It might help you think a little bit.
"Part of the fun? Oh wow, how do i get on the mailing list?! Or is it a MAN type thing."
I don't understand what you mean by this.
May 15th, 2009 at 8:19 pm
When I first read about RapeLay, I was digusted. I still am. I do think it should be banned, but I believe that AU doesn't have an 18+ rating for video games, so I think the only way it will ever arrive here is via the internet.
I do, however, think that people take video games far too seriously. I and my sister used to watch our dad playing DOOM - a game where you kill people and aliens. I used to play it myself. I have recently been enjoying playing Serious Sam, another First Person Shooter (FPS), and have a T-Shirt with "FPS: Frag the weak, hurdle the dead" on it.
I wonder how many of you would object to Grand Theft Auto (GTA) as it encourages you to steal cars, kill people and run from the authorities. All immoral and illegal acts in the real world.
I wonder if you would object to Burnout, where you cause massive smashes on the roads in order to gain money. In real life, people would die.
These are all games I have enjoyed playing over the years, and like I said, I think too many people take them too seriously and believe they have some kind of demonic influence on kids.
If that were so, I would be a gun-toting maniac by now.
May 15th, 2009 at 8:23 pm
The game is appalling. Reading the other responses it does make me wonder why I find this so appalling and other games not so. As a kid I played chess, Battleship and, later, Space Invaders. I was not appalled by the fantasy killing. I had fun and I am nonviolent in real life.
Is fantasy rape really more appalling than fantasy killing? This is a more complicated moral and cultural question than I first thought.
Georgia Girl, what do you think are men's attitudes towards rape? I'm a man and think rape is appalling and even rape fantasy games are appalling. I believe I represent the norm. Does this change your opinion about men's attitudes?
May 15th, 2009 at 8:23 pm
Derek: "The oddest factoid I learned about Japan was the largest consumers of rape porn are Japanese women."
Interesting, women with an urge to rape women. Can anyone substantiate this? I find myself tempted to combine this information with the oft-repeated claim that rape is a crime of violence and nothing more. I've always found the latter claim suspect on the basis that it also constitutes a viable, if odious, means to reproduction, but recognizing that is apparently not politically correct. However, rape, for a woman on a woman, is not a means to reproduction in any way and might thus be correctly recognized as indeed purely a crime of violence. The difference in perspective might account for a lot...
Georgia Girl: "I'm really surprised ... that Franklin has made this horrible video an issue in an MRA room!"
I'm not. Glenn and Robert periodically pepper us with pro-women posts like this. I think it helps keep them and us sane.
Georgia Girl: "The market for this video is MEN"
'Doesn't jibe with Derek's comment, which is why I want substantiation.
Georgia Girl: "What do you guys have to say NOW about men's attitudes towards rape?"
See my paragraph above about differences of perspective.
Georgia Girl: "... is it only a fantasy?"
"only"? What is a fantasy but a chance to act out a role that you otherwise cannot? Rape itself is not a fantasy, but fantasizing about committing rape always is until it is acted upon, then it is not. Or am I missing something?
Georgia Girl: "Don't you believe that this type [of] video [game] promotes RAPE?"
I believe that almost any representation of a morally questionable act promotes that act. From smoking in movies to this, er, game. Operant conditioning is well understood as a means to desensitize people into all kinds of behavior, both good and bad. I will happily join Robert in condemning this game, along with Grand Theft Auto, pretty much all Quentin Tarantino's movies, gangsta rap, non-consensual BDSM internet sites, Clockwork Orange, Mein Kampf, American Psycho, Lord of the Flies, The Koran, The Bible, oh, er, wait, oops, hang on a minute...
ChrisPCD: "I've ordered many atrocities within videogames that i would never do in real life. That's part of the fun, man."
Read some Primo Levi dude, or Grossman's "On Killing", and I bet it wouldn't be so much fun any longer.
Jeana: "WHAT KIND OF SICKO WOULD THINK OF SOMETHING LIKE THIS?"
Welcome to the human race.
My ex-wife used to try to get me to "play rough", which I always found a total turnoff. Eventually, she attacked me and shopped me claiming I had attacked her. There then followed a long and painful battle in which I was accused of anything she could think of and through which she has quite effectively succeeded in completely separating me from my son. I have heard it said that rape is the worst thing that can be done to a woman. I think what she did to me is pretty much the equivalent for a man. I wish that once in a while the sickness of that would be recognized, perhaps in capitals, by a morally outraged woman in a feminist forum.
May 15th, 2009 at 8:33 pm
From the day he is born, every boy is subjected to imagery of violence against his sex to a degree no women could begin to understand. TV, movies, literature and games are loaded to the brim with men, most just doing their job, being shot, stabbed, tortured or otherwise brutally dispatched. We have all become so accustomed to it we don't really see it. But if a single movie came out with the same level of carnage as say, Saving Private Ryan, but where all the bodies were female, then women everywhere would suddenly see what we men have to endure daily. They wouldn't like it and they would complain loudly and bitterly. That's why such movies don't exist.
Even though I deplore these vile kinds of entertainment, I think themes of violence against women should be allowed if there is no parallel restraint against violence against men.
If I may paraphrase a feminist commentator, I think women would be better for the experience.
May 15th, 2009 at 8:36 pm
There are plenty of video games where violence against anyone and everyone is encouraged.
E.g. games such as Postal where you just have to kill everyone - as many innocent people as possible! or the Carmageddon driving game where you get extra points for mowing down pedestrians.
Rape is a truly horrific crime, but certainly not as bad as murdering an innocent person, nevermind a large scale massacre.
Yes the game isn't really appropriate, but nowhere near as bad as so many others out there.
It is wrong to only highlight this game without putting it in context. You;re elevating rape victims up to a level well above victims of murder. We shouldn't give the feminists encouragement like this - making such a special case for rape and wrongly putting it above worse crimes is part of the reason why false rape accusers don't face justice.
Incidently, would be good if someone could make a game about some awful woman where you have to get money by committing paternity fraud, making false rape allegations to claim compensation and generally avoiding jail when beating up your boyfriends by pretending they are the guilty ones.
May 15th, 2009 at 8:38 pm
John Kimble: "Incidently, would be good if someone could make a game about some awful woman where you have to get money by committing paternity fraud, making false rape allegations to claim compensation and generally avoiding jail when beating up your boyfriends by pretending they are the guilty ones.
They have, it's called "Divorce Court", loads of fun for all the family.
May 15th, 2009 at 8:40 pm
John Kimble says, "Rape is a truly horrific crime, but certainly not as bad as murdering an innocent person .... "
On the contrary, that's exactly what rape is:
THE MURDER OF AN INNOCENT PERSON,
depending on the brutality of the rape.
May 15th, 2009 at 8:40 pm
"Read some Primo Levi dude, or Grossman's "On Killing", and I bet it wouldn't be so much fun any longer."
Like I said before, they're games. There's a HUGE difference between watching The First 48 featuring a family of 4 adults and 2 kids killed in cold blood in the same house, and taking out 2 soldiers from over 20 yards with a weak medic with an enfield in Silent Storm. All the sick things that go on in this world don't make fun games any less fun whether they feature a nerf bat or napalm.
All these sorts of things are marketed to people who tend to know the difference between fantasy and reality. Otherwise I would've used the money spend on the game and computer to buy a REAL enfield, right?
May 15th, 2009 at 8:46 pm
Eric, i mispoke ... i didn't mean to include ALL men .... certainly not men like yourself and others like you ....... Slwerner comes to mind. Forgive me for getting carried away on the degenerate segment.
May 15th, 2009 at 8:46 pm
ChrisPCD: "Like I said before, they're games. There's a HUGE difference between watching The First 48 featuring a family of 4 adults and 2 kids killed in cold blood in the same house, and taking out 2 soldiers from over 20 yards with a weak medic with an enfield in Silent Storm. All the sick things that go on in this world don't make fun games any less fun whether they feature a nerf bat or napalm."
When I was a child, I used to enjoy playing "war games" in the back yard, with a stick for a pretend gun. Now I have grown up and acting out killing someone in any manner is distasteful. Nevertheless, I would defend to, well, some degree of exertion, your right to play whatever games you like.
ChrisPCD: "All these sorts of things are marketed to people who tend to know the difference between fantasy and reality."
Ah, but the point of operant conditioning is that while you act out your fantasy, you are steadily conditioned to produce the killing reflex when the right conditions are encountered. The military knows this very well and works hard to control those reflexes once they are conditioned in. Video games in your living room carry no such safeguards.
ChrisPCD: "Otherwise I would've used the money spend on the game and computer to buy a REAL enfield, right?"
In some countries, many people do exactly that. They claim they'd never use it in anything but self defense. That's what they claim.
May 15th, 2009 at 8:48 pm
Georgia Girl: "On the contrary, that's exactly what rape is: THE MURDER OF AN INNOCENT PERSON, depending on the brutality of the rape."
No, that's murder. If a rapist murders his victim, it's murder and rape. Rape is not murder.
May 15th, 2009 at 8:53 pm
Nope, you are wrong --
The crime of rape can be equivalent to murder, depending on the brutality.
In otherwords, murder does not necessarily TRUMP the crime of rape.
Don't quote me laws because i don't give a rat's ass what any law says.
May 15th, 2009 at 8:59 pm
Whislt Im sure some isolated really awful rapes can overlall be considered significantly worse than the most humane murders, all other things being equal, rape is quite rightly considered to be less of a crime than a murder and thus quite correctly results in a lesser sentence.
Rape isn't murder, what a stupid thing to say.
May 15th, 2009 at 9:00 pm
My reaction is to be horrified at this game. But as I have a logical mind, I look for a logical analysis, just as Robert Franklin has tried to do in his post, arguing for a moral code. Here is my analysis:
1. Murder is at least as bad as rape.
2. GTA glorifies murder.
3. I am not horrified by GTA.
4. Rapelay glorifies rape.
5. I am horrified by Rapelay.
The statements are inconsistent. The inconsistency can be removed by removing any one of these statements. Therefore at least one of these is wrong (3 and 5 are true because they are my feelings, but feelings are not logical so 3 & 5 can be wrong in that sense).
Which one is wrong? I have a suspicion it is 3.
May 15th, 2009 at 9:02 pm
Georgia Girl: "The crime of rape can be equivalent to murder, depending on the brutality."
Ah, equivalency. I think what you are actually equating are your emotional reactions to the two crimes, rather than what they actually are.
Georgia Giirl: "Don't quote me laws because i don't give a rat's ass what any law says."
Actually, I'd be more likely to quote dictionaries at you, having a somewhat distrustful attitude towards legal definitions myself. Nevertheless, the law is what we are expected to live by and it is what defines how various transgressions are punished. The day that we put rape and murder next to each other in the law books is the day that some more very nasty injustices take place.
Let's try a little thought experiment. Recently, I read that it costs the state of California US$250M to execute each and every convicted perpetrator of a capital crime. Let us suppose that instead of wasting the money like that it is instead given to the victims of the crimes. (For the sake of argument let us assume that the perpetrator is appropriately punished via some irrelevant means that costs, say, $10.) Would you rather be a victim of a really nasty rape and walk away with $250M or be simply murdered, leaving $250M to whomever you leave behind?
May 15th, 2009 at 9:05 pm
"The crime of rape can be equivalent to murder, depending on the brutality.
In otherwords, murder does not necessarily TRUMP the crime of rape.
Don't quote me laws because i don't give a rat's ass what any law says."
I think I get what you're saying. I'd rather die than get raped by a guy. But if I were being raped by a really unattractive woman, I'd rather be raped.
May 15th, 2009 at 9:05 pm
George: "3. I am not horrified by GTA. Which one is wrong? I have a suspicion it is 3."
That gets my vote.
May 15th, 2009 at 9:08 pm
ChrisPCD: "I think I get what you're saying. I'd rather die than get raped by a guy. "
I'm willing to bet that you wouldn't, which is why a gun is such an effective method of forcing submission to rape, no matter what kind.
May 15th, 2009 at 9:08 pm
JD, you mean if I had the opportunity to go back and choose between 250M or death?
I would choose death.
Do you "really" think a million bucks would compensate for the following?
http://www.georgia-tech-victim2.blogspot.com
May 15th, 2009 at 9:10 pm
Georgia Girl; #28
Congratulations! You have successfully given the entire Family Court of this country its Motto, Creed, and SOP.
Man, If the your NOW sisters throw you out then you can join us fathers in exile.
May 15th, 2009 at 9:13 pm
It's weird that JD right? I agree that I should be more horrified by gratuitous killing than I am, but I am pretty certain that most guys have the same reaction as me - ie much less disgusted by gratuitous killing than gratuitous raping.
Eric, good post.
I would also like to make clear that (I am sure) everyone here knows that some guys are bad and some guys do rape, and that act is without doubt to be condemned. (Nobody has denied that, to my knowledge.) I don't think the video game is good evidence for that fact, as Georgia Girl seems to contend in her post number 2 above, but even if it is, it is not telling us something we don't already know.
May 15th, 2009 at 9:15 pm
Georgia Girl: "JD, you mean if I had the opportunity to go back and choose between 250M or death?"
No, the answer to that question would be uninteresting and miss the point.
Georgia Girl: "Do you "really" think a million bucks would compensate for the following?"
The link doesn't work. But anyway, I said $250M and the idea is not to compensate. Which is better, to be alive and have had a really traumatic experience, or to be dead and, er, well, that's all she wrote?
May 15th, 2009 at 9:16 pm
"But if a single movie came out with the same level of carnage as say, Saving Private Ryan, but where all the bodies were female, then women everywhere would suddenly see what we men have to endure daily."
Q: Why do horror movies depict women being killed?
A: Because when men are killed in movies, it's not horrific.
I don't think most women will ever see what we men have to endure daily, based on the predictible and consistent denials they assert when our perspective is presented to them.
May 15th, 2009 at 9:17 pm
"I'm willing to bet that you wouldn't, which is why a gun is such an effective method of forcing submission to rape, no matter what kind."
You'd lose that bet. I can in no way even attempt to describe what living life would be like for me after being raped by a dude. Especially if my family and friends know about it. He'll have to rape my corpse.
May 15th, 2009 at 9:21 pm
George: "I agree that I should be more horrified by gratuitous killing than I am, but I am pretty certain that most guys have the same reaction as me - ie much less disgusted by gratuitous killing than gratuitous raping."
I have a hard time conceiving as rape as anything but gratuitous (and I know you didn't mean that), although I can see some killings might be less so than others, nevertheless, I am pretty much equally averse to either.
May 15th, 2009 at 9:22 pm
And, GG, do you really think that 250M is compensation for murder? After all, that would be putting a price on a person's life.
At least rape victims are able (with assistance) to get back on their feet and go on with life.
A murder victim can't (obviously).
A rape victim's family and friends can assist the victim, and aren't necessarily left feeling helpless.
A murder victim's family and friends are utterly helpless.
So no, rape is never the same as murder, and should not be treated the same or as a worse crime.
May 15th, 2009 at 9:26 pm
@Georgia Girl...
I tried to draw the attention of some of the better known feminist blogs. Seems they didn't care much.
I have sent messages to the Aus govt as well. Who knows, maybe some of the pollies could quietly hint to their Japanese equivalents that it doesn't do much for Japan's image.
May 15th, 2009 at 9:27 pm
i correct the url, but franklin has a muzzle on me.
May 15th, 2009 at 9:28 pm
franklin, shall i give it another try?
May 15th, 2009 at 9:29 pm
Georgia Girl: "i correct the url, but franklin has a muzzle on me."
No matter, but I'd appreciate your answering the question.
May 15th, 2009 at 9:29 pm
JD Yes, you're right I didn't mean that!
I find it interesting (and I have thought about this before) that my gut reaction to rape is so much stronger than it is to murder.
May 15th, 2009 at 9:34 pm
okay, i'll try a "different" one ---
http://www.georgiatech1962a.blogspot.com
May 15th, 2009 at 9:35 pm
To be honest with you, when distasteful games like this pop up, it's probably best to pretend they don't exist. If it weren't for this post I would have never heard of this game or be interested enough to see why there's fuss.
May 15th, 2009 at 9:37 pm
gwallan, what letters have you written to the australian gov't?
JD, what questions didn't i answer.
I'm all in a dither here .... cuz somebody duck taped my mouth.
May 15th, 2009 at 9:45 pm
sonja, if liz seccuro's story was unbelievable in 1984, why do you think anyone would have believed "me" in 1962? Don't even bother responding ... You and I are never on the same page.
May 15th, 2009 at 9:45 pm
Georgia Girl: "okay, i'll try a "different" one ---"
OK, skimmed it, pretty ugly. So what? My question remains unanswered.
May 15th, 2009 at 9:48 pm
Georgia Girl:: "JD, what questions didn't i answer."
JD: "Let's try a little thought experiment. Recently, I read that it costs the state of California US$250M to execute each and every convicted perpetrator of a capital crime. Let us suppose that instead of wasting the money like that it is instead given to the victims of the crimes. (For the sake of argument let us assume that the perpetrator is appropriately punished via some irrelevant means that costs, say, $10.) Would you rather be a victim of a really nasty rape and walk away with $250M or be simply murdered, leaving $250M to whomever you leave behind?"
(Look out, it's a trap!)
May 15th, 2009 at 9:51 pm
Ask a shorter question and make a point.
May 15th, 2009 at 9:53 pm
Georgia Girl: "Ask a shorter question and make a point."
Yes ma'am: Would you rather be a victim of a really nasty rape and walk away with $250M or be simply murdered, leaving $250M to whomever you leave behind?
The point lies in your answer.
May 15th, 2009 at 10:01 pm
Money is not (never was) an issue, so you'll have to offer me more options if you want an honest answer.
May 15th, 2009 at 10:04 pm
Georgia Girl: "i correct the url, but franklin has a muzzle on me."
The guy's name is Robert, and it's common practice to capitalize someone's name.
If you don't take the trouble to find out someone's name, or think you are entitled to refer to them by their surname only, and can't even be bothered to hold down a shift key when typing it out, then don't expect any courtesy in return.
May 15th, 2009 at 10:05 pm
If money were not an issue, then your answer would be unaffected by it. Why are you distracted by the money?
May 15th, 2009 at 10:08 pm
Georgia Girl: because i don't give a rat's ass
We noticed. A long, long time ago.
May 15th, 2009 at 10:09 pm
Georgia Girl. Clarification and apology accepted.
When the subject is horrific, it can be difficult to parse accurately.
May 15th, 2009 at 10:10 pm
mc, holding down a shift key to capitalize names takes extra time
it's a sign of "laziness" -- not disrespect ...
May 15th, 2009 at 10:10 pm
Georgia Girl Says: Cuckoldry? First of all, what does it mean?
My response: It means "paternity fraud".
May 15th, 2009 at 10:17 pm
JD, .... stop playing games .... else i'll send you to your ROOM without a twinkie.
mister M, your #59 is out of context.
g'nite~!
May 15th, 2009 at 10:18 pm
Cuckoldry: Imagine secretly implanting a fertilized embryo into another woman's womb, and letting her give birth and raise a child without ever letting on that the child is not really hers.
Now reverse the genders. That's what cuckoldry is.
May 15th, 2009 at 10:25 pm
mc, okay ... that's an awful thought, but here's another one ---
Imagine a young girl being drugged and gang raped by at least a dozen men, and she gets pregnant as a result. Alas! Who's the father? She has no memory of having sex!
That didn't happen in my case, but it's a true story.
You want to know the standing joke among the frat guys? They called her the "blessed virgin". Funny stuff huh
May 15th, 2009 at 10:26 pm
mc Says: " Cuckoldry: Imagine secretly implanting a fertilized embryo into another woman's womb, and letting her give birth and raise a child without ever letting on that the child is not really hers. Now reverse the genders. That's what cuckoldry is."
Another option: Secretly implant a fertilized embryo into a woman's womb. Let her give birth. Take the child away from her. Force her to pay child support payments to the father of the child. Send her to jail if she loses her job and can not pay the child support payments.
May 15th, 2009 at 10:39 pm
Georgia Girl are you capable of NOT constantly playing the victim card? I really can't dredge up sympathy for you. I've met rape victims, and seriously, not one of them mentioned it for any kind of sympathy, just as a matter of course.
May 15th, 2009 at 10:48 pm
Many women's romance novels have rape themes in them and studies suggestion most women fanatize about being raped. No, I don't think anyone seriously thinks that means women actually want to be raped, but most women enjoy a certain element of complusion (being taken) in their sex lives. I think feminism has killed the normal non-verbal communication of human sexuality. Hence the college lectures to men that at every stage they must ask "premission." It must be so romantic: "Can I touch your breast," "Can I put my hand between your legs," "Can I take your shirt off," and so on. When women can't find that normal element of "being taken" within their consensual relationships the extreme reaction of the rape fanatsy takes over. In a highly commerical and tech friendly soceity like Japan the women play rape video games. Here they read about it in pornographic "novels."
May 15th, 2009 at 10:59 pm
One of the things that disappoints me most about GG is that she seems to think that we men are supporters of rape if we do not share her vision of manhood as being that most men fantasized about rape (and then rape or just support a society that is supportive of rape).
Well, since there is still rape, that must mean we live in a society that promotes rape, right?
We still have bank robbers, so by that same logic, women must be supporters of bank robbery. If women were not supporters of bank robbery, then bank robbery would be eliminated.
In fact, anything short of a 100% conviction rate is PROOF that women are supporters of a 'bank robbery' society (women vote in greater numbers, they participate in elections more than men, and they live longer, giving them greater opportunity to vote and have their voices heard).
This is what suffices for logic on the part of the misandrists. If rape still occurs, regardless how many laws forbid it exist, regardless of how many men are in prison for that crime, regardless of how many men work to make sure women are NOT raped, regardless of the fact that a convicted male rapist will have to register as a sex offender until the day he dies.
PS I personally spent over ten years of my life teaching women HOW to defend themselves (as well as men, the sight impaired, the hearing impaired, & handicapped folks) from rape. I spent over two decades as a feminist supporter, but dare to support men's rights as well as women's rights even if that means I will be attacked, maligned, threatened, etc.
May 15th, 2009 at 11:23 pm
This Japanese video game is NOT hot off the press. It's old news. I'm really surprised, but glad, that Franklin has made this horrible video an issue in an MRA room!
The market for this video is MEN ..... duh.
What do you guys have to say NOW about men's attitudes towards rape? .... is it only a fantasy? Don't you believe that this type video promotes RAPE?
Can we have this archived so that when feminists finally get around to acknowledging men's issues (without attaching a disclaiming declaration that women still indeed have it worse) we can just say tell them its old news, say duh, and ask them where their attitudes about _______ (insert issue).
But seriously GG this is your opening comment? Robert didn't backpedal and try to excuse rape or anything like that and you still decide to attack him for being late on the issue?
And, GG, do you really think that 250M is compensation for murder? After all, that would be putting a price on a person's life.
At least rape victims are able (with assistance) to get back on their feet and go on with life.
A murder victim can't (obviously).
A rape victim's family and friends can assist the victim, and aren't necessarily left feeling helpless.
A murder victim's family and friends are utterly helpless.
So no, rape is never the same as murder, and should not be treated the same or as a worse crime.
Yes a godzillion times yes.
GG rape is a horrible crime and I'm sure there are countless people who have been raped but not killed and were never able to recover. But I dare you to find one person that was murdered and was able to recover from it. Look at it this way. There's a reason that at least some rape victims are around to argue that rape is on par with murder while no murder victims are around to argue that it isn't.
May 15th, 2009 at 11:31 pm
@Georgia Girl...
Messages on the ALP website. Email to the Party administration. Direct verbal communication with two of the three MPs in my region. I will also raise it at the next branch meeting and attempt to pursuade that branch to write to the executive of the party. Two fold purpose - to ensure the game is never permitted into the country and to directly pressure Japanese politicians.
I can easily imagine a woman becoming pregnant as a result of rape. However I doubt that anybody would be denying that woman any choices, including abortion, that she needed to make to deal with the situation. This is not the case for male victims should their rapist fall pregnant. In those instances ALL the choices are allowed the rapist rather than the victim.
I can cite an instance where a man has no recollection of the sexual activity that created a pregnancy which resulted in him being forced, by his family, to marry the woman concerned. She had got him drunk for that purpose with the intent of falling pregnant. Just quietly I reckon he isn't the only one. Sometimes rape IS all about power and control.
May 15th, 2009 at 11:38 pm
It's a video game. Get over it.
May 15th, 2009 at 11:40 pm
Mark,
There’s a difference between fantasizing about rape or having it in romance novels and simulated rape in this game. And who says that Japanese women play the video games? Someone claimed that Japanese women like rape porn. That’s not the same thing. It’s a weird line, though. Maybe because it’s men playing the game and not women and it’s too close to reality. Women thinking/fantasizing about it are in control and can stop it or change it whenever they want. I don’t know.
I also wouldn’t be so quick to blame feminists for killing off human sexuality. No one really expects you to ask for permission before touching them (as long as you know the right time to do it). I would think there’s more awareness about not doing things to people you barely know, or if you feel you must, then yes, asking them is appropriate.
May 16th, 2009 at 12:02 am
This is not a men's rights issue.
As for first amendment scrutiny - The game will pass with flying colors - it as the game developers, players etc are not "the Congress", nor are they making a law. The sheer assumption that it has to "pass" first amendment scrutiny is preposterous.
There is a very easy way of avoiding the game - don't buy it and don't play it. Plus because its not a men's rights issue - I couldn't care less, let them sell all they want. Maybe I should buy a copy.
May 16th, 2009 at 12:03 am
Scott66:
RapeLay, as you describe it, sounds like a product I would in no way support. However, I think if an mra was going to actively oppose it, the message should be something like; "This is what you get when you have an anti-male society, males start acting anti-social. Women are reaping what they have sowed for supporting the bigotry called Feminism."
Gee, Scott66, that would be a great message for you MRAs to get behind, as long as you want to appear to be nothing more than a shallow bunch of feminist haters and rape apologists. I have a better idea, how about if an MRA was to actively oppose this game, the message should be something like “We MRAs are against sexually abusing and exploiting all men, women and children and don’t think sexual violence against either women or men is something to be taken lightly.”
What do you think?
May 16th, 2009 at 12:44 am
Jeana:"I have a better idea, how about if an MRA was to actively oppose this game, the message should be something like “We MRAs are against sexually abusing and exploiting all men, women and children and don’t think sexual violence against either women or men is something to be taken lightly.”
What do you think?"
That'll start happening when we hear the spokeswomen in NOW publicly condemn false rape accusation and promote severe and equal punishment for it.
Forget this tactic Jeana, it's all word-play and it's going nowhere.
Men have been condemning sexual violence for as long as I can remember - this thread alone is evidence that a lot of men still feel the need to support women in social issues.
MRAs will never come out and say what you want them to say because they're the first significant bloc of men to realize that what men have been doing for women has been taken for granted, and the favor is not being adequately repaid. Until women in general begin to understand that men will leave them to the wolves if they don't develop a collective sense of reciprocity, I don't believe women will get real and treat men with the respect they deserve.
Cry all you like, we're not budging. Develop a sense of justice that isn't women-centric and you might start to see a change of attitudes.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:16 am
Does a game like this appeal to me? Nope.
From my perspective I think rape is a horrible crime. I have never excused anyone from that committed such a crime. On the other hand this game is fantasy and frankly, no one seems to have an issue with rape fantasies in romance novels.
What's the difference between the to? Women consume the novels and this game is probably marketed at men. So why is one condemned and the other is acceptable?
Is this another case of What women does is good and what men does is bad?
GG back to you.
P.S. to make it perfectly clear is disturbs me that anyone likes rape fantasies. Men or women.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:58 am
I've heard of this game before. I think the Japanese are simply more in tune, and more honest about the contents of their subconscious than we are--both male and female. That's why such a game could be created and marketed there. They have no qualms about admitting the darker elements of sex and power between men and women. I have no problems believing that many Japanese women would even get a kick out of rape porn (same as American women) or would countenance this game. It probably hits all kinds of secret sado-masochistic urges in the female psyche.
That said, I think the game is appalling. Pankaj, I must disagree with you that this isn't a men's rights issue. What better way to pigeon-hole guys than to catch them in possession of such "proof" of their base and uncivilized nature? I pity the boy or man who, after being (wrongly) accused of some improper advances by a female peer, is found to have this game in his possession. If he was considered guilty until proven innocent before, well this game would utterly destroy any remaining defense he had. Obviously, only a rapist would play such a game, so you know, as the reasoning goes, he's guilty. Tell me that's not a men's rights issue. In my opinion, many people would take the view that owning a game like this is going to be socially equivalent to looking at kiddie porn. I'll lay you odds that's the way the media would present it.
In many ways, this game is a very effective tool in furthering the perception that men are all raving beasts looking to rape 12 year old girls. I find that pretty sick.
Personally, I find this game offensive and not a little deviant. However, I'm kind of upset that rape continues to be seen as almost solely a "male-on-female" phenomenon. Others here have compared the rape of women to "cuckoldry." Frankly, I find it comparable to the rape of men, which I find no less horrendous an act. Believe me, if someone decided to create it, there'd be a market for a video game on the rape of boys and men. Bet that there'd even be a few smug feminists playing it. I find the crime of rape to be very serious, especially with the advent of HIV, making it a potentially deadly crime. But I don't consider it a "women's issue" anymore than domestic violence should be. So, basically, yeah I would definitely boycott this game, because I find rape to be reprehensible, no matter the sex or age of the victim. But also, because I think this game gives more ammunition to female supremacy groups that men all have an appetite for rape.
Ok, that's it for now. Hope that all makes sense.
May 16th, 2009 at 2:31 am
Rebekah,
So, because the already misandric justice system will not like possession of this game, means people should not own it? Tell me what is that going to accomplish? A bit more compassion for the man? I doubt it.
But instead if the sales of this game soar .... it might help stir interest in exploration of male perspective among women. I say buy it, buy 100's of copies if you can!
May 16th, 2009 at 2:45 am
"So, because the already misandric justice system will not like possession of this game, means people should not own it? Tell me what is that going to accomplish? A bit more compassion for the man? I doubt it."
Nah. I'm just saying, it's fuel for the fire against men.
"But instead if the sales of this game soar .... it might help stir interest in exploration of male perspective among women. I say buy it, buy 100's of copies if you can!"
Now that would be funny. The look on my husband's face when the order came in the mail would be priceless. He'd probably think I'd lost my head, lol.
May 16th, 2009 at 3:17 am
"it's fuel for the fire against men. "
We have plenty of others to fuel the fires - at least this will burn a few fingers. After all, feminists have been crying about a lot of things - lets give them something to really cry about! This absolutely is not a mens rights issue. But it could be made into a brilliant attraction.
To all whiners, its a f-ing game - get over it!
May 16th, 2009 at 3:55 am
"Mark,
There’s a difference between fantasizing about rape or having it in romance novels and simulated rape in this game."
I would agree, a simulation is limited to what exists within the software. With a fanatsy, or even reading, the human imagination is put to task. The results may be more tame, and then again, they may be much darker than anything featured in this game.
"And who says that Japanese women play the video games? Someone claimed that Japanese women like rape porn. That’s not the same thing. It’s a weird line, though. Maybe because it’s men playing the game and not women and it’s too close to reality."
In Japanese culture is more than likely both men and women are playing the game. Even though it's becoming less true here, the stereotype that video games are a "male thing" simply doesn't exist in Japan. If you care to do some searching you can see screen shots of the game, I won't post links on Mr. Sacks blog out of respect, it's not very realistic. This isn't something a major studio put out, it's what you'd call low budget.
"Women thinking/fantasizing about it are in control and can stop it or change it whenever they want. I don’t know."
I did not say that women would, or do, actually enjoy the prospect of being raped. What women do enjoy, and what is supressed by feminist ideology, is being taken. A part of complusion within the confines of consent. When the need is not being met the response is fanatsy or seeking it out in the form of pornographic novels that depict rape as desirable. This is no different than this Rapelay game.
"I also wouldn’t be so quick to blame feminists for killing off human sexuality. No one really expects you to ask for permission before touching them (as long as you know the right time to do it). I would think there’s more awareness about not doing things to people you barely know, or if you feel you must, then yes, asking them is appropriate."
While it is commonly taught that at every stage premission be requested, I'd agree that it is probably not something actually done to the letter by most couples. That said, it still produces two neurotic individuals:
1.The Male: Feminism teaches him that he is by nature a rapist and the drive to take must be supressed. This is not the normal function of human sexuality.
2.The Female: Must deal with being taught that her natural and normal desire to be taken is a violation of her empowerment. While at the same time she wants it no less. The end result is fanasty about rape, or rape pornography (such as romance novels) instead of having that complusion statisifed by normal sexual relations.
No matter how you want to slice it, in addition to what feminism does to male sexuality, it's producing generations of women that are mentally in a place where rape is something for fanasty and pornography.
May 16th, 2009 at 6:24 am
Jeana the major flaw in what your saying about men taking this issue up is that for years, from campus walks all the way through 99.99% of men have taken rape as an issue and fought against it , we have been more than doing our fair share in that regard ( and i mean men , not rapists there is a distinction although some dont think there is ) .
You mention men speaking out against this and the majority here have tonight , however i would push you back to the kevin myres article a few posts back http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/the-feminist-sirens-remained-quiet-for-the-victim-is-a-man-1728418.html, there are several different injustices that now and the likes dont speak out against , esp the accusation of rape when it isnt true , in fact as this article shows feminists have spoken out when a woman is punished for breaking the law.
While I have agreed way more than is healthy with you in the last week i have to say on this one that we have reached an oversaturation of chivarly and while i do find the game repugnant i also do find things like GTA etc as well vile, ill sticl to football manager when im playing a game ........ its not our battle this one is a feminist thing and while on the subject of rape the VAST majority of feminists see men as collatoral damage a game is not something that we should be campaigning about , we take up every cause and we lose sight of our objectives which im sorry have to be the crux of why we are here and its sad but the way of things when we have reached a stage where we have to think like this .
May 16th, 2009 at 8:07 am
This game has as much to do with actual physical rape, as the next game has to do with the epidemic of children who go out and battle robotic ninjas in the future.
If this game was about making fun of raping men in prison (there is at least one board game about it), I might find something offensive about it, in the context of how actual physical rape of men in prison is still allowed to occur with few to no obstacles.
May 16th, 2009 at 8:08 am
Mark says " I think feminism has killed the normal non-verbal communication of human sexuality. Hence the college lectures to men that at every stage they must ask "premission." It must be so romantic: "Can I touch your breast," "Can I put my hand between your legs," "Can I take your shirt off," and so on. "
What is also amusing is that it is difficult to see how anyone could ask those things without also being accused of sexual harassment, considering that the people who put in place these kinds of rules would also be the same people who would support ridiculously draconian sexual harassment policies.
The notion that sexual relations require this kind of explicit consent, as if one was negotiating a legal contract or something, is ridiculously sanitised and unrealistic.
May 16th, 2009 at 8:09 am
shhhhhh pat according to some , thats not rape its just an "alternate lifestyle" which is another reason my view on this is as such .
May 16th, 2009 at 8:35 am
Japan has some “out there” norms about sex. I hear acceptable for men to read comic porn in public on the subway. They have developed some sexual practices that some would say are wired.
The video game in question does seem perverted.
I have heard that Japanese culture and laws allow for outlets for blowing off sexual steam.
With all this said, Japan seems to have a low incidence of rape (extremely lower than the enlighten US of A).
I don’t know what the truth is in all of this… but I am prepared to be surprised.
May 16th, 2009 at 9:16 am
What about the thousands of things we see and hear that depict the killing of men?? We hear that women are getting raped in Africa's tribe wars, but the media hysterics conveniently do not mention that as the girls are raped, and then let live,... the males are killed.
May 16th, 2009 at 9:20 am
Derek say's
"From my perspective I think rape is a horrible crime. I have never excused anyone from that committed such a crime. On the other hand this game is fantasy and frankly, no one seems to have an issue with rape fantasies in romance novels.
What's the difference between the to? Women consume the novels and this game is probably marketed at men. So why is one condemned and the other is acceptable?
Is this another case of What women does is good and what men does is bad?"
MCA say's that's a brilliant observation!!!
May 16th, 2009 at 9:39 am
18 Eric "Georgia Girl, what do you think are men's attitudes towards rape? I'm a man and think rape is appalling and even rape fantasy games are appalling. I believe I represent the norm. Does this change your opinion about men's attitudes?"
Notice Eric how she avoided that DIRECT question.
First, to her, rape is a gendered crime, not something that happens to men and women, but only to women and only by men.
I have spoken to women who have been sexually assaulted by women, for example, but even when women attack women, men are to blame in the minds of the misandrists.
It seems that no matter how much we decry rape as a horrible crime, she still seems to think that we men are all supporters of rape of women.
She seems to blame ALL men for rape, not just the ones who rape, kind of like why she has no problem with men falsely accused or falsely convicted of rape (in her mind, she seems to think all men are guilty of rape whether thy rape or not).
May 16th, 2009 at 9:43 am
31 JD Says: "the law is what we are expected to live by"
the law is what MEN are supposed to live by...women like GG expect a 'special' set of laws.
Spend enough talking to her and you'll find about as much respect for due process and civil rights of men (and the constitution as it applies to men). The misandrists seem to have no respect for laws or constitutional protections of men and yet they are eager to pas the ERA (equal rights amendment).
the laws of this land go well out of there way to protect women. Should we ignore these laws that protect women, GG, or should we only ignore the laws that protect men?
39 SerenityNow Says: " I don't think most women will ever see what we men have to endure daily, based on the predictible and consistent denials they assert when our perspective is presented to them."
As a feminist supporter for over two decades, I feel incredibly hurt that their supposedly egalitarian feminist movement is anything but.
The ONLY real difference between a feminist and a misandrist feminist is that the feminist is not only capable of empathizing with men, they do so without difficulty, often without even having to open your mouth. Full blown misandrist feminists generally demonstrate a massive unwillingness to empathize with men in any way, shape, or form.
Misandrist feminists could be shown all the ways in which men suffer and their only response on the whole is some form of blame the victim (when the victim is male).
From all my experience with GG, she has demonstrated the ability to empathize with men's suffering almost never. She does, however, maintain a hypocritical demand for equality that insists that her gender be granted empathy and support while she withholds all forms of empathy and support from the gender that she expects to come to her aid.
They'll likely tell you that "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle" and the next minute they'll demand all men run to protect all women from rape by men.
Wait a minute hypocrite. You just said you don't need me. So don't come running to me to protect you. Protect thyself.
What hypocrisy have you read from this person?
May 16th, 2009 at 10:12 am
Rebekah,
I think your comments in post #78 are pretty bang on, with regards to the greater Japanese tolerance for sado-masochistic elements. As George Carlin pointed out, the Japanese predilection for violent pornography is much, much higher than North American, and yet incidents of actual rape per-capita is far, far lower (the ratio is 16.99 to 1, according to www.nationmaster.com -- which uses very well cited data -- from the period of 1998-2000)
Now, I know feminists will claim that this is because rape goes that much more unreported, such as stated by Equality Now: "In addition, women’s rights activists in Japan inform us that the numbers of reported rapes are not likely to reflect the actual incidents of rape in Japan. It is also difficult for women in Japan to report rape because victims have little faith in the criminal justice system and are worried about the stigma attached to rape."
This boggles the mind for two reasons:
1) That would mean that for every unreported rape in the USA, there would have to be seventeen in Japan just to break even, and even that would only show that a nation with a far higher predilection for violent porn had *merely* the same rape per-capita, demonstrating absolutely zero correlation between violent porn and violent behavior.
2) The murder rape per capita in Japan is also much, much less (8.56 to 1 over the same period as above), as is assault (22.31 to 1), and even the overall crime per capita rate (4.18 to 1).
So yes, Rebekah, I think you're on to something.
May 16th, 2009 at 10:21 am
"What about the thousands of things we see and hear that depict the killing of men?? We hear that women are getting raped in Africa's tribe wars, but the media hysterics conveniently do not mention that as the girls are raped, and then let live,... the males are killed."
menscollegeactivist:
I don't know what programs you listen to, but Darfur has been a huge focus in several classes I've taken. The emphasis has been as much on the killing and disfiguring of men (like blinding, cutting off of limbs, cutting out tongues) as it has been on the rape of 8-10 year old girls. And men and boys are hardly safe from rape either--they get targeted, too, for such gang violence. The thing is, it's hardly any comfort to the rape victim, whether male or female, that they are "let [to] live." Because of the prevalence of AIDS, there are many communities that have a 50% or greater infection rate among adults. Also, because of the practice of "honor killings," women and girls who are raped are still at danger from murder at the hands of their own relatives.
Not only that, but because many of the gangs are so violent, they tend to do so much internal damage to their victims, that their victims often die of internal injuries and infection anyway (again, this goes for males as well as females, although they tend to target females more often for rape. They tend to disfigure males more though.) So, for the man or woman or child who gets rape, it often ends up being a death sentence anyway.
I'm not stating this because I think all rapes occur under the above circumstances. I dare say most rapes that occur over here are hardly of the same brutal nature, and certainly, there are far more medical resources and agencies to assist rape victims *here.* But, it's a different story in Africa, where rape is a very effective way to systematically kill off a group of people. Male, female, it doesn't matter--the situation is so gruesome in Darfur, it's unimaginable to most of us here in the west.
I agree with you that rape is a better outcome than death most of the time. In the hands of sadistic military and government leaders though, it's become another very effective method of killing.
May 16th, 2009 at 10:41 am
"We have plenty of others to fuel the fires - at least this will burn a few fingers. After all, feminists have been crying about a lot of things - lets give them something to really cry about! This absolutely is not a mens rights issue. But it could be made into a brilliant attraction."
Pankaj, LOL. It *would* get attention. Interesting, if unconventional, tactic. ;)
I still wouldn't want *my* son playing it though!
May 16th, 2009 at 11:09 am
Jeana - Re: Your comment #75. Actually I did exactly what you suggest. Last Friday (8 days ago) I emailed the organization mentioned in the article linked to. I told them who I am and that I represent the fathers' and men's rights blog, GlennSacks.com. I said we wanted to join with them in support of their opposition to RapeLay and asked how we might assist that effort. I also asked for the name of any U.S. distributor or marketer of the game. They have not responded.
GG - I'm not muzzling you. If you're having trouble posting a comment, please say so and I'll contact the tech people. I have not interfered with your comments in any way.
May 16th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
Are you serious Robert? Why should anyone protest this game, especially men who have detailed knowledge of the way men are treated? I would have preferred to be silent, but given all the opposition to a f-ing game, I am more inclined to support it. Sorry, but you are simply affirming what majority of women already know - no matter how badly men are treated, they will always stand up for women. And just notice how brilliant that has worked for getting attention towards men's issues - it has earned their silent approval towards the maltreatment of men.
Point is - stop being so damn chivalrous, if its a problem they need help with, let them ask for help, don't offer your unconditional support like a good sero. I can understand you trying to be decent, but decent never got any man anywhere.
May 16th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
Pankaj,
I have a great idea, why not make a game called Prison and the object is to kill as many male prisoners as you can. And you get extra points for raping them. And a bonus for mutilating the genitals of the child molesters. Would that be ok? After all, as you so eloquently put it, “To all whiners, its a f-ing game - get over it!”
May 16th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Robert Franklin,
I actually didn’t say that MRAs needed to say or do anything. Just that it would be a bad idea to be on the side of this game and to use this as a way to taunt feminists. You have plenty of other ways! But I think that what you did is a good thing.
May 16th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
Pankaj says:
"Point is - stop being so damn chivalrous, if its a problem they need help with, let them ask for help, don't offer your unconditional support like a good sero. I can understand you trying to be decent, but decent never got any man anywhere."
Pankaj,
I think you missing that both Robert and Gleen want to turn the feminists into allies. They believe that feminists really meant all the stuff about equality that they talked up over the years. From that perspective it should be possible with enough work and good faith to turn them into allies in getting men equal rights with women.It should be an effective strategy if there are enough feminists who really want men and women to be equal.
For everyone's sake I hope they are correct, but everything I have seen indicates that feminists are out for women only and on top of that, they enjoy seeing men suffer. It's frankly a ideology of hate that goes unchallenged by most people.
But on the other hand playing tit for tat does not really advance our cause. Just because it pisses feminists off does not mean it's right or good. We should support or fight things on their own grounds, not based on who is for or against it.
May 16th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
Derek,
I am not trying to piss off feminists - i.e. I did not make the game itself. But to go out of my way to support them in their "fight" against a game is too much. I advice all MRAs to stop aligning themselves with feminist causes and focus on those of men. The game has not raped anyone, and it is stupid to agitate against it - even as a means to fight rape. The whole reason rape is a big giant issue for feminists is because it is a crime that highlights the way women need men - to protect women. Otherwise, women need men like a fish needs a bicycle - except when it is time to put oneself in harms way and defend a woman.
And maybe Glenn and Robert really believe that feminists want equality. But even a child sees through gimmicks like those of feminists - that say one thing and do another. When are people going to take the hint - its a scam, they never meant it, and its dumb to give them credibility by standing by them, even if it is for a worthy cause (which this game bashing isn't)
May 16th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
Jeana says:
"I have a great idea, why not make a game called Prison and the object is to kill as many male prisoners as you can. And you get extra points for raping them. And a bonus for mutilating the genitals of the child molesters. Would that be ok? After all, as you so eloquently put it, “To all whiners, its a f-ing game - get over it!"
Jeana It seems clear you like to get worked up over fictional things and you enjoy your outrages. If that works for you then it's fine. Personally I don't get upset that such things exists. I don't try to judge everyone in the universe based the stuff they view. To me people are how they act, not about what goes on in their heads.
But I find it odd that you don't have a similar reaction to romance novels. They depict rape and violence. Yet millions of women read them each year. Yet no outrage from Jeana.
May 16th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
Pankaj says:
"I am not trying to piss off feminists - i.e. I did not make the game itself. But to go out of my way to support them in their "fight" against a game is too much. ....... The whole reason rape is a big giant issue for feminists is because it is a crime that highlights the way women need men - to protect women. Otherwise, women need men like a fish needs a bicycle - except when it is time to put oneself in harms way and defend a woman."
Not saying you are trying to piss of feminists, I just don't see the value not doing something just because they do the same thing. I really don't think that leads to anything productive. You give up a lot of freedom of action when your positions and ideas are defined by doing the opposite of what another group does. It just leads to lots of circles in the air.
Rape's a pretty evil crime. Even though feminists use it as a tool to bash men does not mean we should not oppose it as well (not saying that Pankaj supports it). On the other hand feminists in general don't care about very painful things done to men in our society. I think Glenn and Robert are pointing out feminists own inconstancy on such issues. And being forced to see that your actions are not the same as your ideals can be a very powerful thing (see Civil Rights Movement).
"Women need men like a fish needs a bicycle" Still cracks me up. It's so very untrue and yet so ridiculous at the same time. A lot of feminism was pushed by hardcore lesbians who wanted women in mass to stop having families and stick to only having sex with them. It was one of the prime movers in the entire early movement. And it failed horribly.
We are programed to want to each other. We want to love and be loved. A bunch of chicks who only dig chicks can't change that. Women need men. Men need women. And most importantly children need both parents.
May 16th, 2009 at 3:55 pm
One big advantage MRA have over the feminists is that we are basically only asking for our due. Despite of the characterizations to the contrary, men are looking for shared custody, due process in things such as dv and rape (or false dv and rape), birth control options, and ending paternity fraud and financially predatory arangements. We are not looking for the right to abuse anyone, special privlidges, to abandon our children, or to collect money we did not earn.
This one reason feminists seem to have such a hard time getting their arms around what we are doing. When ever I see a feminist on tv argueing for their "rights" it is almost always juxtaposed with someone from the church or someone who has a fundamentalist or traditional position. They can always assert victimhood and strive for the high moral ground by claiming that they only want their freedom.
When that same feminist comes up against someone like Glenn Sacks or Robert Franklin it is if they brought the wrong ammunition to the fight. That is why it always seems as if there are two seperate conversations going on; because there is.
It is critical that we never cede the moral high ground. That is why I applaud Robert Franklin for not remaining neutral on issues such as rape. Not only is it the right thing to do but it takes away feminisms trump card that is used against men when we try to assert for what we want.
May 16th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
I have a great idea, why not make a game called Prison and the object is to kill as many male prisoners as you can. And you get extra points for raping them. And a bonus for mutilating the genitals of the child molesters. Would that be ok? After all, as you so eloquently put it, “To all whiners, its a f-ing game - get over it!”
Actually there are a number of indy games that revolve around prison, prison rape, prison murders, and so on. No one is making a big deal out of them.
May 16th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
"I think you missing that both Robert and Gleen want to turn the feminists into allies."
Impossible, and incredibly foolish to even attempt. It would never succeed in anything except the destruction of the MRM.
May 16th, 2009 at 4:22 pm
Pankaj wrote: "I would have preferred to be silent, but given all the opposition to a f-ing game, I am more inclined to support it."
This meets precisely the definition of "cutting one's nose to spite one's face".
Pankaj, please rethink your stance! The men's movement and father's rights movement need many things, but self-inflicted wounds are not one of them.
May 16th, 2009 at 5:01 pm
The only argument in favor of appeasing feminists (for the moment) is that it makes it harder for them to have the machinery of state silence you. As every day passes and the number of men speaking out increases, that appears to be diminishing as a consideration.
I think we need to get past the idea that feminism is some kind of ideology, and that the bad behavior we see coming from them - and many women in general - is due to some kind of conspiratorial hatred of men. These sorts of reasons would suggest an intellectual component, and I just don't think there's any intellectual motivation going on at all (though conscious thought is clearly involved in the execution of their deeds).
So many women are behaving badly because it makes them feel good. Demeaning men and seeing them suffer for crimes they didn't commit is appealing to them at some primal, subliminal level. It is the near total absence of intellect that allows this kind of 'reptile brain' response thrive.
If men want to see women rising to their full potential, then men need to put women in situations where they have to face the consequences of their own actions and learn to prioritize good thinking over primitive thrills. Every time a man rushes off to the assistance of a woman, he keeps her in a mindless place. I would add that the same thing is true for everyone; shelter people from the consequences of their actions, and they will sink into idiocy. What need is there for clear, cogent thought if it brings no added benefit?
We do women no service in siding with them in issues they make a clamor about. It is only when it is entirely up to women to act that they will think clearly about whether they really even want it.
I see the biggest problem facing men has been the ease with which they have assisted women, when the best possible way to get them to grow up is to make them answerable for what they do in exactly the same way as men, and to work for what they want in the same way as is expected of men.
Although this rape game is only a little affair, it shows all the usual elements of the male-female dynamic. Women react immediately and emotionally to 'a bad feeling'. Women make noises of outrage that this 'bad feeling' be vanquished from their perception. Men rush in to assist. Women get good feeling knowing that the dog is still on its chain. Will be repeated in a day or two.
May 16th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
Sorry Knock Knock,
I am not going to stand by the hype of blaming games for real world problems. Its dumb, but feel free to assign credibility to feminists.
May 16th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
"that the dog is still on its chain. "
well said mc.. This is why I have insisted that the crime of rape is nothing I wish to expend my efforts to combat. I have better things to do, like playing computer games where I kill virtual people... funny no one complains about those - oh wait! they do.. but only when a neglected tortured soul goes on a shooting rampage. No one cares what is being driving these people to such rage.. that is until the next rampage.
"Blame Canada! Blame Canada!"... thats the attitude
May 16th, 2009 at 6:17 pm
Hey Charles, I just now saw your post. Thanks for your comments, and for that link. Very interesting!
May 16th, 2009 at 7:07 pm
I cannot believe this debate.
Everyone is getting this worked up over a game? Give me a break.
It's a video game about rape and rape is awful! Yes, rape is awful, but please. There's absolutely no reason for us on this side of the globe to go crazy like this.
I'm not an expert on Japanese culture, as I don't live there, but I've studied the Japanese lifestyle, eaten their food (what I can stomach) and partaken in their entertainment. The Japanese people, for the most part, are very reserved and inhibited. So, as an outlet, they create some of the most outlandish forms of escape. We're people who are still "shocked", "dismayed" and making a federal case of a single breast flashed during the Superbowl FIVE YEARS ago. They, on the other hand, see no problem with showing near full nudity on kids shows.
These are people who go to a themed restaurant based on a comic character with feces for a head so they can eat food out of toilet bowls. These are people who watch game shows where men get hit in the groin...for laughs.
There are real societal issues that can be discussed both here and Japan as they have many of the same problems with true, real to life misandry and double standards. For example, there's the issue of women getting fondled on commuter trains there, so many of the commuter trains have become woman-only. What isn't well known is the fact that many men are fondled in the same way by women. And, of course, this isn't seen as a big deal to anyone.
This video game seems like a non-issue to me. I mean, will the next article be about the various pornographic stories where women are raped by tentacled monsters? Or all the various non-pornographic stories where a man somehow 'offends' a woman and, in retaliation, she knocks him down, grabs his legs and grinds her heel into his crotch...again for laughs?
The Japanese are off the wall, to put it likely. I mean, I wasn't that surprised to hear that you could go to another themed restaurant and drink a milkshake made from mayonnaise. There are plenty of things done by the Japanese in the name of entertainment and sexual gratification that I personally find revolting (another example...vomit isn't sexy). But to make a such huge case of it... in my opinion isn't warranted.
May 16th, 2009 at 8:07 pm
And to answer Mr. Franklin's question....there doesn't appear to be a distributor for the game in the US. Though, it wouldn't surprise me if there were some websites that are willing to export copies.
May 16th, 2009 at 11:00 pm
Mark,
“Actually there are a number of indy games that revolve around prison, prison rape, prison murders, and so on. No one is making a big deal out of them.”
One of these was the subject of a thread here. They do get controversy, but I would bet not as much as something like this game. I actually think that if adults want to play a game like this, I say--whatever floats their boat. But I wouldn’t want young people to do so because not all of them understand that this is a game. I do believe that too much violence (in video games, tv, etc.) coupled with other things (violent family or surroundings, mental illness, developmental disability, etc.) leads to an acceptance of violence and in some cases at least, causes people to act out things they read, watch, or play. And even an NC-17 rating is NO guarantee that kids wouldn’t get a hold of this.
If they’re not allowed to market cigarettes to kids, then they shouldn’t market rape to them either.
May 16th, 2009 at 11:03 pm
DwS:
“I mean, will the next article be about the various pornographic stories where women are raped by tentacled monsters?”
If so, forward me the stories, please.
May 17th, 2009 at 3:30 am
@jeana...
Tentacle erotica
May 17th, 2009 at 7:49 am
I did a bit of digging on it , looked at the screenshots , its anime , its designed in a way that while sick it does have a BIG distinction between the real and the blatantly false I did a lot of digging as well i cant find one situation where games have been blamed for societies ills over there where as in the west its a common idea .......... maybe thats the point , this is a game, a sick game but japan and its people know its just a game and treat it as such while we are not able to make the differentiation ??
May 17th, 2009 at 8:01 am
jeanna says
"If they’re not allowed to market cigarettes to kids, then they shouldn’t market rape to them either."
MCA says, do womens romance novels that have rape scenes in them, get marketed to underage girls??
May 17th, 2009 at 9:26 am
Where do we all think games like this come from? Japan is a misandrinous state. We had an article on this blog about men working to provide for thier wives for years to have them divorce thier husbands when they retire. That is a big picture of what i saw in one article. Who knows maybe the day to day life is just as bad as it is here. So some kid makes a bad video game. It is just a game. Every male in that society and ours knows or has an idea of what is instore for them.
May 17th, 2009 at 10:54 am
Rebekah,
thanks. Another thing which I found out is that, as much as groups like Equality Now try to defuse my points with "but rape goes largely unreported in Japan", it should be pointed out that rape largely goes unreported in the USA as well. And the odd thing to me is that it really outrages me more as a fan of video games, that they're trying to correlate 'unsavory videogames' with 'unsavory behavior in real life', than their attempt to correlate 'misogyny in fiction' to 'misogyny in real life'.
May 17th, 2009 at 11:19 am
Charles ..you can continue to foment hysteria, with the faulty and inflammatory misinformation that "Rapes are severely under reported in the U.S.", only because the public has been spoon fed misinformation from the "misinformation Alliance" for the last 25 years.
when the gender feminist / law enforcement Misinformation Alliance is challenged as un- constitutional, and a direct violation of the 14 amendment Equal protection clause,.... then and only then, the truth will come out.
May 17th, 2009 at 11:23 am
Concerned men/fathers will have an uphill battle to fight, as long as the "Gender feminist / law enforcement Misinformation Alliance", is allowed to continue manufacturing and spreading their Hate speech. Gender feminism has turned into a hate movement, that uses as it's prime weapon...faulty and inflammatory misinformation, and a broken Academia that does not dare to challenge the juggernaut.
May 17th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
Gwallan:
Thanks! Interesting.
May 17th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
MCA:
No, I don’t think they get marketed at all to young girls. I think they might be hard to find. I don’t know where to find them. But if a minor girl wanted to find and buy one, she could. Like a boy with a violent NC-17 game.
I think it might give the wrong idea to young people who maybe don’t have a good grip on what’s fantasy and what’s acceptable.
May 17th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
jeanna says
"I think it might give the wrong idea to young people who maybe don’t have a good grip on what’s fantasy and what’s acceptable."
MCA says thats half the problem right there, when the only ones that voice their opinions on what "young people think"...are gender feminists, we see only the opinions of these ideologues that claim to speak..... "for the children".
Gender feminism is making a train wreck of our children!!
May 17th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
Well said MCA. These people have inherent hatred and delusions about human kind, its not just men, its also kids, and especially boys. I always find it fascinating and kinda repeatitive that people who have absolutely no clue about a subject matter usually try to claim expertise in the area. Lets see, shooting games have been around - usually involving shooting at armed targets in military bases/war zones. How many kids have invaded military bases in an attempt to get to the next level? Maybe my suspicions are true kids are more sane than adults, they know what is right and what is wrong much better than adults..
May 17th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
Easy there MCA, you've got me pegged for being on the wrong side there. You're missing the implied "by the same standards that rapes go unreported in Japan, ..." In other words, feminists claim that a "vast majority of rapes go unreported in the USA", then immediately say that the staggering ratio of rape statistics between USA and Japan (17 to 1) are invalid because "the vast majority of rapes go unreported in Japan".
Do you see what I'm getting at?
I know they don't teach rhetoric in college anymore :) so my bad for not making myself clearer.
May 17th, 2009 at 4:30 pm
Jeana,
It's much easier to find a romance novel where the female lead is being raped than you might think. A 1987 study [Thurston, C. (1987). The romance revolution: Erotic novels for women and the quest for a new sexual identity. Chicago: University of Illinois Press.] found that female lead was raped in 54% of romance novels. There's a good article online (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2372/is_1_45/ai_n24383385/pg_13/) that goes into it in much more detail.
May 17th, 2009 at 5:13 pm
Charles,
I don’t think romance novels can be compared to this game. I would say rape in romance novels is on par with anything else you can read in magazines, books, or online. Different. In fact, probably a lot tamer. The problem people seem to have with it is that women’s fantasies might involve more than a knight in shining armor on a white horse romancing her and having sex once they are duly married. Booooooooring.
I feel the same way about this game as I do about other murdering games. They’re for adults. And they’re just not for me.
May 17th, 2009 at 5:13 pm
So MCA and Pankaj think that I have no idea what I’m talking about when I say, "I think it might give the wrong idea to young people who maybe don’t have a good grip on what’s fantasy and what’s acceptable" because I call myself a feminist? And because young people aren’t attacking military bases, that’s Pankaj’s evidence that violent video games are A-OK? I think that all the violence kids are exposed to does add up and does make one less shocked by violence in reality. I don’t think it makes ALL or even most kids violent, but it does affect some. You can disagree. I will allow that.
May 17th, 2009 at 5:25 pm
Jeana,
having never read a romance novel myself, I cannot comment; however, this feminist source (http://community.feministing.com/2008/06/why-is-rape-romantic.html) describes a romance novel of around the time that was (very!) loosely based on the historical story of Joan of Kent, and states that in this version, she was underaged, kidnapped and brutally raped, to which she responded by falling in love with him!
There may be a lot more of the "forced seduction" as opposed to out and out brutal rape in these books, but I have a suspicion that there is at least some of the latter as well as the former.
May 17th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
I know why this is such a big issue for feminists - because without chivalry, there is no feminism. My goal, to deprogram chivalry out of my system and help others who want to get it out of theirs as well.
Now I am off to acquire a copy of the game - lets see how bad it really is.
May 17th, 2009 at 7:01 pm
Jeana ok while I'm going to have to assume you worded the "will allow" part erroniously and hopefully didn't mean it quite as condesendingly as it came out but to answer the point you made, while people can become desensitised to violence through movies and media there has been no evidence in studies that has a conclusive link between games and media causing violence ( big deal made of this in uk post jamie bulger ) and I think its important that we do take that into consideration esp as it could also be argued that media portrayal of men over last 20 plus years is directly to blame for the increase of female on male violence ( and will we blame the next bobbit case on the film teeth ?) I think that's the point being made kids are a lot more savvy than people give credit for hell gun crime is massive now in relation to 20 years ago and in that time boys have actually been discouraged from toy guns and wargames if someone is going to rape they will rape doesn't happen just because someone plays this sick game watches heintei or has a penis
May 17th, 2009 at 7:02 pm
"Like a boy with a violent NC-17 game."
I had to look up the rating. In Australia, we don't have a rating like it for computer games. The highest is MA 15+, which is pretty obvious - you have to be over 15.
MCA - I'm not so sure that it's just gender feminists who talk about what kids know. Over the last few years, the Howard government did a LOT of talking about young drivers, focusing on those on their Provisional license. The NSW government introduced some of the most stupid restrictions, including a limit on passengers between 11pm and 5am in an effort to reduce peer pressure.
May 17th, 2009 at 7:10 pm
Good for you Pankaj. If I was a video-gamer, I'd do the same. Time to end this chivalry once and for all.
While any man is responding to bleating women, he's neglecting his own interests. It's a standard military trick to keep the enemy occupied with distractions that diminish their ability to defend themselves. If that same distraction actively helps women, rather than just drains the men's resources, then it's no wonder we men are getting a thrashing.
May 17th, 2009 at 7:11 pm
"If they’re not allowed to market cigarettes to kids, then they shouldn’t market rape to them either."
There's no marketing involved here, these are underground games made for a certain type of player that likes a little rape in his/her video games. The only reason many people heard about this was that it somehow ended up on Amazon. The local clerk at Gamestop is rushing up to tell 12 year old Jimmy about the latest releases in rape games.
May 17th, 2009 at 7:15 pm
Like a boy with a violent NC-17 game
NC-17 is a moving rating as per the MPAA. I'm sure something like this would recieve the "Adults Only" rating from the ESRB, but again, these are underground games that appeal to a very small market. This game did manage to end up on Amazon very briefly, it never would have outside of a mistake. However, these are not products you'll find in mainstream video game shops. Which is unlike women's romance novels that feature rape themes and are carried in all the major book shops.
May 17th, 2009 at 8:16 pm
When i was a little girl, we had a magnificent wooded area behind our home. My girlfriend and I loved these woods, and we often played out roy rogers and dale evans and trigger .... among other hollywood scenarios.
One of the games we loved was pretending we were Tarzan and Jane. My mother always pissed us off because she insisted that we include my younger brother in our excursions. Well, since we HAD to include him, we decided to make him play the role of "Chetah" (the monkey). We made him eat bananas and keep a low profile.
So, what jeana says is true ... no matter how our brains interpret the messages from early childhood, these fantasies might materialize.
To this day, my brother has a compulsive urge to swing from vines and eat bananas. He's 62 years old.
May 17th, 2009 at 9:57 pm
This game is a one of many products of this nature out of Japan. It is not released for any of the major US consoles, and will not be. The only way to get it is via the Internet, and games of this nature do not sell very much in the West. This will not see Grand Theft Auto levels of sales, and most gamers will never even know of its existence.
A great deal of fuss over a non issue.
May 17th, 2009 at 11:34 pm
Charles,
Those books are, in my opinion, just female fantasies and nothing else. No woman would actually expect to fall in love with her rapist. But somehow the books make it seem right and good. I can’t explain it! Female porn.
May 17th, 2009 at 11:34 pm
Duncan,
I was joking with the “will allow”. And I don’t think that violent video games (or cartoons) turn people violent, but I can see that young kids could become desensitized. My son plays House of the Dead with his father and it’s a game about killing zombies (he only plays it during the day or he’ll be too scared of the zombies). Now he keeps talking about chain sawing people, and while I know he’ll never do that, it makes me wonder if it’s negatively affecting him. He rarely plays it, but still. I keep telling him that it’s not real, that people don’t have multiple lives, that we never should ever pick up guns, and he says “I know! I know!” I hope he does.
May 17th, 2009 at 11:35 pm
Mark,
You can’t compare women’s fiction with this game. You can, however, compare it to similar male fiction and girly magazines which are found in exactly the same places that the erotic novels are found. Probably in more places than the novels are found, actually.
May 17th, 2009 at 11:41 pm
Taiden, etc.
I don’t think it’s actually a non-issue. There is something about it that is a little off-kilter. Maybe because rape isn’t as acceptable as killing is. But I would be disturbed if my husband played that. I wouldn’t care if he played other games, but that would make me wonder what kind of person he was and why exactly he was playing that. (Although I wouldn’t want him to judge me if he caught me reading gwallan’s link. But that’s different.)
May 17th, 2009 at 11:41 pm
Georgia Girl,
You are crazy!!!
May 17th, 2009 at 11:42 pm
jeana: don't let him play Doom 3, Bioshock, System Shock 1 or 2...
They're all very dark, and I couldn't play Doom 3 in daylight, while cheating, without jumping out of my skin every few minutes. Usually with a suppressed expletive.
May 17th, 2009 at 11:44 pm
lol
May 17th, 2009 at 11:48 pm
Jeana,
if you read the link I provided (to the research on the subject) that the consensus is that these women enjoy the thrill of being dominated and 'tamed' by a typical alpha male type, but that there is still a vast difference between fantasizing about being raped and actually wanting to be raped. Probably on par with the difference between being on a crazy roller-coaster versus jumping out of an airplane. Same general 'thrill' of twisting in the air, but the degree of personal control is a whole lot different.
Nevertheless, the irrefutable existence of women who enjoy rape fantasies brings up an important point: Just because some women fantasize about being raped, that doesn't mean that they condone the actual crime of rape, and would never ACTUALLY want to endure it, right? So why can't men fantasize about raping without condoning the actual crime of rape, and would never ACTUALLY want to do it? Yet the former is market furiously by women, to women, while the latter is causing the stinkstorm you see before you.
May 18th, 2009 at 12:09 am
I am gonna buy this for all my friends - a whole lot of fun
May 18th, 2009 at 12:27 am
Charles,
I never said men couldn’t fantasize about it. I always thought it was a little weird that everyone talks about women fantasizing about being raped but I’ve never heard anyone say anything about men. I assume men do the same and I wondered if they fantasize about being the dominant or submissive person more. Or maybe it depends on how they are in real life—then their fantasies would be the opposite I guess. I don’t know much about that!
May 18th, 2009 at 12:29 am
Pankaj,
You are like a child who wants attention. Here—you have mine. Why don’t you get a copy of the game, play it all night, and let us know how you liked it, ok? Maybe you can get out some of your aggressions. But if you get carpel tunnel from it, you only have yourself to blame.
May 18th, 2009 at 12:33 am
Charles,
I think people (mostly women) are kind of scared that if things like this game become mainstream, then more women will be hurt. Sometimes you hear stories about women who are raped and the guy makes them do things he saw in magazines or whatever. But that doesn’t mean that the magazine made him rape, I know. It just seems like maybe some men can’t control themselves, and “some” men becomes “most” men. So you feel you have to control all men because some are bad.
May 18th, 2009 at 12:33 am
Jeana,
in the 90s, both Buffy: the Vampire Slayer and Xena: Warrior Princess set loose a veritable flood of "strong woman action shows" which would be pretty much 30 or 60 minutes of a woman beating the snot out of dozens-unto-hundreds of male stooges. We decry any horror movie with even a HINT of explicit male-on-female violence as "torture porn" yet Kathy Bates wins an Academy Award for doing just that to James Caan in Misery?
So yeah, the point is is that I believe there is a pretty strong undercurrent of men enjoying suffering at the hands of a strong woman. Based on my experience in the internet "porn-o-sphere", I'd have to estimate that in terms of violent porn, M on F is a distant third to both F on F and F on M.
As for my personal opinions, I refuse to judge anyone on their sexual proclivity. We can't help being born with what we're born with. I have yet to see any conclusive study done attempting to measure whether violent porn foments violent behavior, or is a cathartic preventor of such behavior in a "Clockwork Orange" kind of way. But barring that, if a human knows right from wrong, and does right and does not do wrong, what turns them on is completely irrelevant.
May 18th, 2009 at 12:39 am
Charles,
Really? Violent female porn is more prevalent? That surprises me. Is that because men like to watch that more, or women, or both? Well, I guess you wouldn’t know. But I agree with your last sentence.
May 18th, 2009 at 12:45 am
Sonja,
He only wanted to play House of the Dead because it’s in places that have video games. He usually places Mario & Luigi or Star Wars games. I think my husband thinks it’s ok because it’s zombies and not people being killed. Although you can kill people & lose points. I miss Pong.
May 18th, 2009 at 1:12 am
Jeana, did you see the awesome Samsung ad done by a group called the "Baaa-Studs"? If not, look it up on YouTube.
Pong played out by sheep with LED's on them....
May 18th, 2009 at 8:19 am
jeanna says
"Sometimes you hear stories about women who are raped and the guy makes them do things he saw in magazines or whatever. "
MCA say's, are you telling stories???
May 18th, 2009 at 10:15 am
Ah! Jeana, all of a sudden you don't care about people playing a game involving rape. Now you see me playing rapelay as a way to get rid of my aggression.
If you can actually find a good reason to play the game, why condemn it? Why cry all the way to daddy figures to prohibit others from playing the game? Maybe its just that there isn't enough aggression in society for you to let them live their way. Its the same thing with you neo-conservative-neo-liberal folks. You have no problems with preemptive strike against anything - human or virtual. And because you know your inability to pick on someone of your own size and your internal cowardice, you pick on the little guys who do nothing to you.
May 18th, 2009 at 11:38 am
Jeana said:
It just seems like maybe some men can’t control themselves, and “some” men becomes “most” men. So you feel you have to control all men because some are bad.
==================
Let's turn that around, and see how offended she is...
"It just seems like maybe some [women] can't control themselves, and "some" [women] beomces (sic) "most" [women]. So you feel you have to control all [women] because some are bad."
Is what you said any less sexist and wrong?
May 18th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Pankaj,
I’m picking on the little guys? And I’m neo-liberal neo conservative? And I’m crying to daddy figures? I only posted a few comments here. I’m not trying to get the thing banned. Nor would I. Calm yourself.
May 18th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Rubic,
I was not at all being sexist in what I said. I was trying to maybe explain the mindset of some who worry about things like this game. And how worrying about what a few guys will do can turn into controlling or at least monitoring every guy. How is that offensive to you?
May 18th, 2009 at 12:04 pm
MCA,
I bet you never read any stories about women who are assaulted, so you wouldn’t know the kinds of things that go on sometimes, would you?
May 18th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
Jeanna, I'm all about protecting real victims of rape / domestic violence. The key word here is REAL victims, not ones that use the legal system to punish ex-boyfriends.
May 18th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
Man, MCA must be serious, he's no longer talking in the third person! :)
May 18th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
Jeana,
Your language was that of a second person trying to convince the person or persons they were debating with via empathy (YOU feel YOU need to...). If you were commenting on another person's point of view besides your own, without the attempt to convince your conversational partner(s), you'd say "they feel," "they need." You presented it as your own feelings, intentionally or not.
Now, personally, I don't make such assumptions, or feel the need to control men OR women. I don't allow "some women" to become "most women," and stamp out such hyperbole in all but the most comedic of contexts (this frustrates people I converse with to no end when it comes up). As such, I take offense when somebody tells me "you start wanting to..." or "it makes you feel..." It's a generalization, which argumentitively is typically a bad thing.
As far as effectiveness... I already understood such a person's mindset, but that does not mean I agree with or would condone such comments or actions. To wit, I understand the functioning of a bullet, but that doesn't mean I want to fire myself out of a cannon, or that I want to shoot a person or animal.
May 18th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
"You can’t compare women’s fiction with this game. You can, however, compare it to similar male fiction and girly magazines which are found in exactly the same places that the erotic novels are found. Probably in more places than the novels are found, actually."
Saying something over and over doesn't make it true, regardless of how much you might like it to be the case.
May 18th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
Ok Mark, you can believe that women’s romance novels with rape or forced sex or whatever is pretty much the same as a game where you rape cartoon women. I think that romance novels are more like men’s mags with pictures & stories of things like that. It all has the same theme, though. I know you reeeeeaalllly want to find something comparable that women do.
May 18th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Rubic,
I say “you” not meaning an actual person. I thought I was clear. Sorry I confused you. I meant “people”.
May 18th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
MCA,
Great. But how does that have anything to do with a video game that rapes Sailor Moon? And who really looks like those girls? Maybe the first one with the dress blowing up, but the other two are silly.
May 18th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
Speaking of the Japanese and their way more open and unabashed views about sex, they celebrate a National Penis Day. Somehow you MRAs missed this reason to party. Mark it on your calendars for next year!
http://dating-japan.com/2009/03/up-and-at-em-for-national-penis-day.html
May 18th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
Jeana,
You didn't confuse me by using "you" in place of "people". You made what appeared to have been a Freudian slip. Your condescension towards me isn't called for.
May 18th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
Jeana,
I had a friend who lived some years in Japan. It was through corresponding with her that I learned an incredible amount about the sexual freedom enjoyed there.. and yes, that includes some photos from National Penis Day. A giant wang on a float? A John Thomas made entirely of Twinkies? Now *that's* liberated! :)
May 18th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
I originally assumed this game would be really realistic like games are today. But then I looked into some Japanese anime stuff (is it all sexual?) and after looking at the kinds of things that are common in that genre, I think this game is really pretty much just an extension of their comics. Not much different. It still kind of weirds me out, but I don’t think it’s that much more offensive than anything else that’s acceptable over there. If rape themes are common or at least acceptable, this is just more of the same. It’s more shocking to us, but we have different views about what’s acceptable and not. So I think the Japanese would be far less likely to think this is offensive. And in their culture, maybe they’re right.
May 18th, 2009 at 4:22 pm
Being as it's not real and that the victimized women in the game are in fact nothing more than electrical voltages represented by 1's and 0's, I think that any commotion over this thing is a waste of time and energy.
There are plenty of real violent crimes in the real world being committed that everyone could be fighting to stop instead. If you're at a loss just research the junta in Burma and you'll find plenty of righteous causes to keep you busy. It'd be a lot more productive than complaining about and protesting a video game.
I agree that the government shouldn't ban it due to free speech protections, and I also support a companies right not to sell it for moral reasons if they choose.
Also, I'm starting to get very sick of "certain people" claiming that all men are responsible for the criminality of a small minority. Sexism is by definition considering all men criminals because of gender. It's not a one time slip of the tongue, it's regularly stated.
May 18th, 2009 at 4:59 pm
Charles, what is you're point about my grammar, i believe i get the message i want to get across just fine. If we leave mens rights to just the quack academics, we are in for big trouble.
May 18th, 2009 at 5:10 pm
MCA,
the ":)" indicates that my comment was meant to be taken in a light-hearted fashion, since every other post I've read from you opened with "MCA says ...". Yes, you do get your point across just fine.
May 18th, 2009 at 5:18 pm
Rubic,
I’m not being condescending!! You’re misinterpreting!! Chill out! (Or whatever it is they say these days.)
May 18th, 2009 at 5:18 pm
CJ,
Am I one of those “certain persons”? Yikes. If you bothered reading what I wrote (#150), you’d see that I made no slip of the tongue, I was not making any Freudian slip, it’s just how I chose to write it. Ditto to you what I told Rubic.
May 18th, 2009 at 5:20 pm
I would like for all the guys here to keep a watch on what they say. I think for those of us here that don't hate men, we recognize that the depiction of men in genres in the US, UK, Canada and other westernized states does have a negative impact, since it always "men are evil, stupid or both all the time". To dismiss this as "oh it's just a game" isn't good, when we also want to draw attention to things like the Verizon "dad is stupid" ad.
Instead of just looking at the game by itself, look at the culture its coming from. They do this sort of thing to everyone....they're 'equal opportunity offenders'. They see things differently than we do. So once again, this game should be a non-issue for westerners.
May 18th, 2009 at 7:22 pm
jeana: No, not all anime or manga is sexual. Rurouni Kenshin is a good one like that, as is Hellsing (though it is very violent), Trigun and Naruto.
That said, it's not uncommon. I'm watching an anime I was loaned called Desert Punk which is very sexualised.
May 18th, 2009 at 7:45 pm
Jeana, I was not referring to your 150 post or any individual post at all. I was generally (not specifically) referring to arguments of the form:
Men are in support of [crime A] because most of the people who commit [crime A] are men. This logic of course doesn't hold. It's just a matter of discrete mathematics.
If there's a parent set and a subset the qualities of the subset don't necessarily carry over to all members of the parent set.
May 18th, 2009 at 7:57 pm
CJ,
I don't recall anyone saying that men are in support of any certain crime because most of the perpetrators are men.
May 18th, 2009 at 7:59 pm
Sonja,
I never watched any before. I looked something up yesterday, and it was just a bunch of screen shots, but oh my! I kept clicking on the pictures (I just had to) and then tried to click on a video and I think I crashed their server. I hope I am not an unknowing porn addict.
May 18th, 2009 at 9:16 pm
@jeana...
What is it you think "rape culture" implies?
It's not that long ago that feminist bloggers were labeling this blog "rape apologist".
BTW - re your #181 - recommend you run a virus scan. Seriously!
May 18th, 2009 at 11:56 pm
gwallan,
I don't know what you're asking. And I'm scanning I think. All I did was click on some screenshots in some person's site (well, three pages worth). I didn't download anything.
May 19th, 2009 at 12:03 am
Jeana,
you'd be surprised at how surreptitiously those viruses can sneak in there from even just visiting a porn site. It's good advice, I assure you.
May 19th, 2009 at 12:08 am
jeana: still best to run the scan. Most of what you view on a website is temporarily stored on your computer. In Windows, it's kept in C:\Documents and Settings\(your username)\Local Settings (a hidden folder)\Temporary Internet Files.
Unless you tell it to do so, all the files will stay there and take up space on your harddrive. In IE, you can set it to delete them when you close the application. Just go into Tools > Options, click Advanced, then scroll down to the Security section and enable "Empty Temporary Internet Files folder when browser is closed".
And gwallan: Thanks for the reminder. I've not run a scan in a while.
May 19th, 2009 at 12:19 am
It wasn't a porn site! It was someone's Geocities site. A regular person! And that's not fair that you get viruses. It sure puts a damper on my fun.
And Sonja, there wasn't much in that folder. And I couldn't get to Options, etc. from that folder. This is a work computer, and they have certain settings already programmed in and don't let us have access to everything. But so far my scan is detecting nothing.
May 19th, 2009 at 3:16 am
@jeana...
Reprise...
What is it you think "rape culture" implies?
It's not that long ago that feminist bloggers were labeling this blog "rape apologist".
These are both implications of support for rape on the part of men.
May 19th, 2009 at 3:23 am
@jeana...
Re the virus scanning.
Your comment that the site you accessed "crashed" sets off all sorts of alarm bells for me. It's most likely that nothing IS wrong but it pays to be safe.
You couldn't actually crash a website - well some people can - but clearly something went wrong with your computer when you opened it.
Just be safe!
May 19th, 2009 at 7:18 am
Most of anime is not pornographic. Walk into any big box store that has a good dvd collection section, and you will find an anime section. Anime runs the gamut from "TV Y" rating ( probobly "P" or "C" in Australia, idk about the UK) to full out adults only content that would not be allowed on tv in most countries. Most of the anime available in the US will fall into the TV 13 to TV MA (Mature, for persons 16 or older). In the US, most anime recieves a TV 13 as a matter of course, unless the content is specifically targeted to young children. Two series for younger children that spring to mind are "Bottle Fairy" and "Akazukin Chacha." Both of would probobly revieve a "Y7" rating or so.
Jeana, because anime is drawn, it tends to recieve "modifications" by fans for whatever reason. It is best to ignore fan sites and stick to officially released material. One side note: In Japan, there is a whole industry devoted to "doujinshi," which is fan created books or manga (comics) created using existing characters. This material tends to be more "mature content" heavy when compared to official sources.
May 19th, 2009 at 10:19 am
This game apparently not ONLY glorifies Rape and violence...but then the player also must FORCE the selected female to get and abortion. If she gives birth to the baby, then the players character gets thrown under a bus!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandtechnology/technology/4611161/Rapelay-virtual-rape-game-banned-by-Amazon.html
Apparently the maker of this game, Illusion, has made a few criminal sexually violent video games for "domestic distribution" and finds NOTHING wrong with their product.
I cannot imagine why this game would even be made or available. I get freedom of speech...and Japan is not the USA...but the fact is we live in a global community and this is unconscionably vicious. As a survivor of such acts I am disgusted and horrified that this can be used as a "simulation" ...its so wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to begin!
May 19th, 2009 at 11:28 am
Thank you Captain Chunk & gwallan. It is shocking that anime has mature content!! Shocking! I will have to investigate this further (for scientific purposes).
May 19th, 2009 at 11:29 am
I know this thread is nearing an end, but I have to say something. I finally realized why I couldn’t really answer those guys who insist that this kind of thing is no different from women’s books in which a girl is raped by a swashbuckling pirate who she then falls in love with and marries. It’s because I know (and all females know) that the stories in the book are totally fake, not real, just fantasies that have no bearing on reality. But I couldn’t accept the fact that males also know that this kind of stuff is just fantasy and not real. I thought that there is some segment, and maybe a large one, who would see this and go out and attack school girls. But to be fair, if women get it, men must too. Because you people are right—there isn’t a huge increase in violence that can be attributed to video games. Or any, I don’t think. So if you look at something like this game or other pornish type things, maybe it is just some kind of fantasy that’s just in your brain that really isn’t bad and not something that’s going to brainwash you into becoming a killer rapist zombie. If women know the difference between fantasy and reality, men do too. So I guess I was being a teeny bit sexist.
May 19th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
Jeana,
I appreciate the comment. A lot of people like to bust your chops on here, but I think you're well above the curve in terms of how moderate and reasonable you are in defending your positions and critiquing the positions of others.
But you have it bang on. Indulging in fantasies of doing wrong does not mean one does not know right from wrong. Even if murderers do play these games, that only shows correlation, not causation. After all, 100% of rapists are also critically addicted to oxygen (high dependence, severe withdrawal symptoms, etc.), yet no one would dare suggest that the oxygen drove them to rape.