Dr. Amy Baker on PAS: 'To turn a child against a parent is to turn the child against himself'
June 25th, 2009 by Robert Franklin, Esq.Here's an excellent video on PAS (TVO, 6/12/09). It's a Canadian public affairs TV show called The Agenda with Steve Paikin. The guests are psychologists Dr. Amy Baker and Barbara Fidler, Toronto Family Court Justice Harvey Brownstone and Toronto Family Attorney, Jeffery Wilson. The discussion is excellent and informative.
There are several main points worth repeating. First, PAS is now being considered for inclusion in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, although none of the panelists knew if it would be included.
Second, whether PAS is officially a syndrome or not, it is a very common occurrence among divorced parents and married parents. Justice Brownstone said that he sees it in his court every day to some degree or other. Another Toronto judge recently complained in the Globe and Mail that PAS cases take up a disproportionate amount of family court time. That's true in part because the cases never end; the alienating parent continues to alienate and the other parent tries to stop it, resulting in a series of court hearings that only stops when the child becomes an adult.
Third, Dr. Richard Warshak's program designed to reconnect parents with alienated children has shown very promising preliminary results. Of 22 alienated children, 21 successfully reconnected with the non-custodial parent. Of those, 17 were long-lasting, and of the four that relapsed, it was determined that they had been allowed renewed contact with the original alienator too early. (Anti-PAS/anti-dad commentators attempt to denigrate Warshak's work by calling it "deprogramming." But apparently he's having some promising results.)
Fourth, Dr. Baker has studied adults who were alienated as children by a parent, and found that they often experience serious depression stemming from the alienating family dynamic. Baker also emphasized that to turn a child against a parent is to turn the child against him/herself, since the child's wellbeing requires both parents. Many of Baker's subjects said that, as children, they had wished the non-custodial parent had "called their bluff." In other words, they knew at the time that they didn't believe what they were saying about the non-custodial parent, and wished someone had seen through it.
The video is 37 minutes long and well worth it.
Thanks to Dr. Amy Baker for bringing it to our attention.
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June 25th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
Though I am by no means an expert on PAS, I have seen it used with a friends family. My husbands best friend had custody of this kids for 3 years (Mom in jail) , she came back and he made (in hindsight) the foolish mistake of allowing her as much visitation as she wanted. Within 3 months, the kids were living with her, he had no contact with the kids. WHY, she actually told them that Daddy tried to kill her and that is why she ran away.
It wasn't until he finally got the family into counselling that the truth came out and right now 8 years late only 2 of the 3 kids want to see him, in fact he has custody of the 2 , the oldest still won't see him. His oldest is the daughter and she still thinks MOM is telling the truth. It is amazing what this child believes even when presented with absolute proof that mom was actually in jail for fraud at her workplace.
PAS is serious and unfortunately the stats say that it is 'usually' MOMS that do it to the kids(and to Dad) which is why pretty soon there will be a huge government sponsored study 'debunking' it.
June 25th, 2009 at 3:48 pm
Okay, so how can I start helping my children work through their PAS so they can feel healthy and confident again?
June 25th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
Including PAS in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders would be a huge step. Though given the proclivities of the panel and the recommendation process, I wouldn't be optimistic, but even the discussion of it is significant. Does anyone have any information where in the framework of disorders it is being considered?
June 25th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
I read Amy bakers book Adult Children of Parental Alienation. Great book. I will show it to my daughter when she is older.
June 25th, 2009 at 5:23 pm
My ex-wife is one such abhorrent disgrace of humanity that has chosen to take the route of wilfully alienating me from my son. She has gone against court orders no less than a half-dozen times, regularly forces me to bring her back to court to enforce a "parenting plan" because she feels her own plans trump her own child seeing his father. She's demonstrably a whore - she wants nothing but money, and won't stop short of psychological abuse of her own flesh and blood in pursuit of not having to work for a living. (This "mother" has a master's degree in psychoanalysis, for whatever that means.) She denigrates me in front of my son, including poisoning his mind with malicious garbage. The "court" system in New Hampshire doesn't give a damn, doesn't enforce its own orders, barely slapped her on the wrist for multiple acts of contempt. The "guardian" appointed to be an "advocate" for my son has acted with malicious disregard for his interests. The courts seem to get their jollies out of highly acrimonious disputes and do little to take action to foster relationships between children and their fathers. My son is 5 years old now - how torn will his poor soul be when he grows up and figures out what's really going on, or has been poisoned to think that his father deserted him, despite my efforts to remain involved?
June 25th, 2009 at 5:44 pm
Welcome to the club, Dave. I think you will find a lot of guys reading this blog in a similar situation.
June 25th, 2009 at 6:21 pm
This article is good. But this statement is not quite true: "To turn a child against a parent is to turn the child against himself."
Do parents always represent the child's best interest? No. A child's wellbeing requires both parents? Not always. A child's wellbeing comes from a conflict-free place to grow up. When both parents suck, it's right and good for them to lose the child.
Parenting is overrated around here sometimes. Idealizing parenthood is a fairly reactionary way to try fixing injustice in family court. You could make more and better progress with less of the (historically inaccurate) "traditional family" moralizing. People who seem to give lip service to liberty are actually being reactionary against it. Divorce and family breakup are just great actually, when it's fair and based on facts and not biased against one gender. Why on earth should a dysfunctional family be forced to stay together?
June 25th, 2009 at 6:52 pm
Dave@5 "This "mother" has a master's degree in psychoanalysis, for whatever that means"
I have a sister with one. I think it means they're really, really screwed up. Smart, but not wise or intellegent.
June 25th, 2009 at 7:16 pm
And PAS-type behaviour is not always directed at the other parent either. My family is a classic example of when a parent drives that same wedge between siblings. Of eight siblings only about 3 have regular contact with any others.
June 26th, 2009 at 1:26 am
I want to second David M.s plug for Dr. Baker's book, "Breaking the Ties that Bind -- Adult Children of PAS."
If you are going through PAS, this book is essential for understanding what your child is experiencing, what the likely outcome will be, and how to best intervene and minimize the damage. Warshak's book ("Divorce Poison") is also great.
Like David M., I intend to hand this book to my daughter, when she is ready.
MR
June 26th, 2009 at 7:20 am
8
SerenityNow Says:
June 25th, 2009 at 6:52 pm
Dave@5 "This "mother" has a master's degree in psychoanalysis, for whatever that means"
I have a sister with one. I think it means they're really, really screwed up. Smart, but not wise or intellegent.
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My ex-wife that cheated on me after 6 weeks, yes 6 weeks of marraige has a degree in Psychology. She also hit me and blatantly lied about money.
I find two types of people in the mental health field. Those that are severly screwed up and are trying to fix themselves and those who are truly insightful and honestly can help people.
I would say 60% are screwed up and 40% may have some true insight.
June 26th, 2009 at 11:33 am
Within the field of psychology it has been long acknowledged (in writing) that the field attracts a disproportionate share of people with personality disorders.
June 26th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
12
Richard Stephens Says:
June 26th, 2009 at 11:33 am
Within the field of psychology it has been long acknowledged (in writing) that the field attracts a disproportionate share of people with personality disorders.
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I have always felt that personally. Didn't know there was actual evidence.
Thanks.
June 26th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
I live in Ontario and watch "The Agenda" on a semi-regular basis. It's usually quite excellent and the host, Steve Paikin, usually does an excellent job moderating all sorts of contentious issues.
Awhile back they had a roundtable discussion on "The Evolving Dad." It's a bit hazy in my memory, but as I recall it was rather thoughtful and informative...and generally made a strong case for the importance of fathers in their kids' lives. Anyway, here is the link:
http://www.tvo.org/cfmx/tvoorg/theagenda/index.cfm?page_id=7&bpn=779333&ts=2008-09-24%2020:01:05.0
June 26th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
"Anti-PAS/anti-dad commentators attempt to denigrate Warshak's work by calling it "deprogramming." "
That framing doesn't exactly help their cause.
June 30th, 2009 at 9:33 am
The Family Court of St. Louis County Missouri not only allows and condones PAS but the former head of this court forced her judges to make sure the woman got the most favorable treatment in her court. Judge Susan Block was so arrogant as to write an editorial for the St. Louis Post Dispatch stating her views that men were responsible for all abuse.
This court allowed my daughters to be alienated from me. I would attempt to pick my daughter up for visitation and her mother would have let her go somewhere else. I was driving or flying 900 miles to get these visitation rights. I attempted to get full custody of my youngest daughter and the court ignored the police complaints filed against her mother for violating my rights.
The latest blow from this court was violating State of Missouri law when my ex filed a QDRO 11 years after our divorce to get 50% of my pension. She was more than one year past the Missouri Statute of Limitations for filing the QDRO. I paid an attorney to present this argument. The judge dismissed my motion without any justification or stated reason.
I am 60 years old and have not seen my daughters since 1997 other than in court or at my parents funerals. They were also alienated from their paternal grandparents and had not seen them until their funerals.
This court is completely biased and breaks Missouri State Law every day. Legislators in Missouri know this. I made sure of that.
I used to think about my daughters every day until it hurt too much to do so. Now I try not to think about them but still have nightmares about them and the way I was physically and verbally abused by their mother.
June 30th, 2009 at 5:47 pm
I am ecstatic that this longtime and larger than life issue (PAS) is finally getting the spotlight it deserves and thru awareness and knowledge of it, we can all become better people and better parents. Because the title of mother or father mean nothing without the backbone of parenting. Any 2 can have a child; but it's those who have a plan for that child once here what makes a parent and makes for a better citizen in this world.
That statement, "to turn a child against a parent is to turn a child against himself" was not given the proper meaning it truly deserves. What I've learn to be true (a mother & stepmother) about that statement is that it takes 2 people to form a child (biologically, emotionally and habitually) and that child is made up of those 2 genetics. Therefore, to have a child deny one parent is truly to have a child deny that part of him/her that makes them whole on all realms of existence.
I am currently watching my husband, sole legal custodian of his 2 daughters, and best father I have ever had the priviledge to witness, experience the effects of PAS even with the fact that their mother has very limited visitation rights. What I know is that you (fathers) have to hold on to dear life when fighting for the safety and love of your children. Consistency and integrity is your only hope against the degree of manipulation that can occur. Here's what I have seen that works:
Never say a bad thing or inguire anything about their mother's life (no matter what) because if their lives are in danger when with her then only a court can help keep them safe at that point, not your policing her (hire a private investigator because thats what holds up in court)
Always be consistent with your time and how you show up as a father (never let what their mom does dictacte who you are and are going to be as a man and a father),
Do not react to the lies, just give the facts that only pertain to you and always end with an "i love you" when children are in doubt of what is true
If remarried, ensure you and your new wife (and stepmom) are on completely the same page on all ends (which means finding a median that respects both views and gets positive results)
Because here's what's true: No matter if you stay and participate in their upbringing or you leave and hope they will find their way back to you when they are older...You are going to be the bad guy, when it comes to mothers who dishonor and disgrace their children by loathing, lying and denigrating their fathers. So it is a fine line between sanity and peace in this kind of a war but in the end if your child(ren) can say their father was always there...it is all the justice you will ever need.
June 30th, 2009 at 6:23 pm
Thank-you for this article.
As I read I want to make some things clear that, recently PAS conference was held in Toronto and Dr. Baker spoke passionatly on PAS.
But I should add that Judge Brownstone is Sucing and Blowing at the SAME time. This is because he does not practice what he is trying to preach. he has been and most likly continues to be the problem with bring about PAS ..especially when fathers are involved.
He had pleanty of signs and evidence before him when he made my decision and on top of it I did not agree with his intended order....and then had the tanacity to say You will always be their father... he forgot to tell a Paying father Only... To top it off he writes in his judgement that I consented to it...Wheras he clearly understood me that I did not agree with him and that he had the opportunity to do the Right thing for my Childre...and not let them be victims of Allienation which they have become now.
I challenge J. Brownstone to my reality(Story).
b.parmar
June 30th, 2009 at 6:50 pm
Phil Hefner, I was completely moved by your story. It just about brought tears to my eyes. My custody battle wasnt as horrific but never the less it was traumatic enough for me. It took me seven years of building my case against my daughters mother to get anywhere in our court system. I fought tooth and nail for every inch. I had to get involved on all levels including daycare, teachers, dentists, doctors and whatever else my daughter was into. I was met with allot of hostility from these people but they knew I wasnt going anywhere and if it was necessary i would be back the next day. I got to the point that I told the mediator in our court system that if this wasnt fair I would be back the next month and would continue to do so until i was treated like an equal parent. I filled ex-parte hearings, mediation, evaluations and whatever else I could do to get my face in front of that judge to show her i wasnt going to lay down and go away. Make no mistake about it, its an ugly up-hill battle for us fathers and something needs to be done quickly. Our babies are going to suffer from this.
Phil, keep up the fight.
E.Hill
June 30th, 2009 at 6:50 pm
Phil Hefner, I was completely moved by your story. It just about brought tears to my eyes. My custody battle wasnt as horrific but never the less it was traumatic enough for me. It took me seven years of building my case against my daughters mother to get anywhere in our court system. I fought tooth and nail for every inch. I had to get involved on all levels including daycare, teachers, dentists, doctors and whatever else my daughter was into. I was met with allot of hostility from these people but they knew I wasnt going anywhere and if it was necessary i would be back the next day. I got to the point that I told the mediator in our court system that if this wasnt fair I would be back the next month and would continue to do so until i was treated like an equal parent. I filled ex-parte hearings, mediation, evaluations and whatever else I could do to get my face in front of that judge to show her i wasnt going to lay down and go away. Make no mistake about it, its an ugly up-hill battle for us fathers and something needs to be done quickly. Our babies are going to suffer from this.
Phil, keep up the fight.
August 14th, 2009 at 12:15 am
Dave Thompsonon- I pity you having to deal with the NH courts. you may not even get the chance to say goodbye to your children. It has been many, many, many years (10) since I have seen my little children. PAS and selfishness is to blame for one dead and two others alienated.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:48 am
[...] Dr. Amy Baker on Parental Alienation Syndrome: 'To turn a child against a parent is to turn the child against himself' In Alienation of Affection, Best Interest of the Child, Civil Rights, Department of Social Servies, Divorce, Domestic Relations, Domestic Violence, Family Court Reform, Family Rights, Glenn Sacks, Liberty, Marriage, Parental Alienation Syndrome, Parental Kidnapping, Parental Relocation, parental alienation on November 6, 2009 at 3:45 pm Dr. Amy Baker on PAS: 'To turn a child against a parent is to turn the child against himself&#... [...]