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Fathers & Families Hosts Debate Between 2 Leading Domestic Violence Authorities (Part VII)

October 26th, 2009 by Glenn Sacks, MA for Fathers & Families

stark2Domestic violence and the DV policies of family courts and law enforcement is a multi-faceted issue that has an enormous impact on American families. Fathers & Families is hosting a debate between two of North America's leading domestic violence authorities, feminist DV expert Professor Evan Stark, Ph.D, MSW, and dissident DV expert Dr. Donald G. Dutton.

Evan Stark, Ph.D, MSW (pictured, right) is a forensic social worker who has served as an expert in more than 100 criminal and civil cases, consulted with numerous federal and state agencies, including the FBI and the Centers for Disease Control, and won a number prestigious awards for his work.

Dr. Donald G. Dutton, Ph.D. (pictured, middle right) has published over one hundred papers and ten books, including Rethinking Domestic Violence, The Abusive Personality, Domestic Assault of Women: Psychological and Criminal Justice Perspectives, and The Batterer: A psychological profile.

The debate will run in several segments and will be posted on both www.fathersandfamilies.org and www.glennsacks.com. Readers are asked to keep comments respectful and on topic. Our rules of moderation can be seen here.

All of the posts relating to this debate are available here. Stark and Dutton sparred over numerous issues, centrally the question of whether the DV establishment's "gender model"--domestic violence is something that men do to women, not vice versa--is the proper way to view DV.

In Stark's most recent post he criticized Dutton, saying he "bobs and weaves" and that his interpretations of research aren't accurate.

Below, Dutton responds to Stark.

Glenn Sacks, MA
Executive Director, Fathers & Families

Ned Holstein, M.D., M.S.
Founder, Chairman of the Board, Fathers & Families

Dutton Responds to Stark:

If you have read my previous contributions to this debate, you will have seen that I have been careful to reference the empirical basis for all claims I have made. I do this because the body of scientific knowledge that we are accumulating on domestic violence contradicts the gender paradigm in many critical ways.

"One by one, the central tenets of the gender paradigm have been disproven...There is really nothing left scientifically for the gender paradigm to uphold--the dogma is in shambles."

In the last segment, for example, I cited large representative sample studies that showed:

1) mandatory arrest did not produce reductions in subsequent domestic violence

2) that constellations of family factors produced the effects mis-attributed to male violence

3) that the most common form of IPV is bilateral- matched for level of severity

4) that we can predict which girls will become violent and victims of violence- it’s detectable from kindergarten age

5) that the “wife battering” stereotype is only about 8% of all DV- less common than either bilateral violence or husband battering

6) that court mandated “psychoeducational” programs based on the gender paradigm are colossal failures- in part because they suffer the mis-conceptualizations of the causes of DV put forth by the gender paradigm.

I cited 29 large, well researched studies to support all these claims. What was Evan Stark’s response? Did he alter his dogma to incorporate this new information? Did he provide compelling arguments as to why these studies with a wide range of methodologies should be disbelieved?

Of course not-- he hasn’t done that in 34 years!

What he did was to say I was "bobbing and weaving." That was it.

"[I]t is important to see how the closed dogmatic gender paradigm mind operates. One rule is to ignore all disconfirming data...no matter how well researched."

I point this out because it is important to see how the closed dogmatic gender paradigm mind operates. One rule is to ignore all disconfirming data as Stark does here--no matter how well researched.

It is only through this systematic ignoring of counter evidence that Stark can continue to recite his gender mantra-male dominance-coercive control-patriarchy--one that has remained unchanged since 1974.

John Archer can perform a huge meta-analytic study of gender and IPV(1) – one that examined 426 studies and generated a collective sample size of 65,000 – and Evan Stark will still prattle on about male dv and domination.

One can point out that Simon et al study (2) of attitudes toward dv found that only 2% of North American males found low levels use of dv for coercion acceptable--in other words, normative acceptance of dv is a myth contradicted by the data.

This will not deter Evan Stark's recitation of his mantra. It is for these reasons that I was reluctant to engage in this endeavor. It is just not a scientific debate--research and data sets become meaningless, they are just shoved under the feminist rug.

I have written extensively, along with colleagues Tonia Nichols, Ken Corvo and John Hamel, about the slight of hand tricks that the gender paradigm plays with evidence. These include stacking subject samples so that women in transition houses are asked about the violence done to them--other samples are not examined, nor are these women asked about their own violence. No wonder a one-sided picture emerges.

As soon as one moves away from the highly self-selected and unique shelter house samples, results change. They did so when Nikki Graham Kevan (3) applied Michael Johnson’s gender paradigm notion that only males commit coercive DV to a variety of non-shelter samples--she found that women used coercive DV as well.

When Denis LaRoche (4) applied Johnson’s coercion scale to a general population he found the same thing--female coercive DV.

"These results would cause any social scientist to re-evaluate their position. They have no effect on Michael Johnson or Evan Stark or any of the other true believers in the gender paradigm cult."

These results would cause any social scientist to re-evaluate their position. They have no effect on Michael Johnson or Evan Stark or any of the other true believers in the gender paradigm cult. Johnson’s methodology, upon which his false distinction of coercive dv (all male) and common couple violence (both genders) is based, was to ask women in shelter houses what happened to them. He then generalized from this sample to society as a whole. But as soon as you change the sample, the results change too--women use coercive dv too.

This brings us Evan Stark's claim that “Mounds of research now show that a typical abusive relationship involves coercive control committed almost exclusively by men."

I am not sure what studies constitute these “mounds of research” but I am willing to bet they are the same old one-sided studies of women in shelter houses again generalized to the broader community. In community samples coercion does not differ by gender (5, 6).

"Jan Stets...studying 1,295 couples. As she put it 'wives report more frequent control over their spouses than husbands do.'"

Jan Stets came to this conclusion after studying 1,295 couples. As she put it “wives report more frequent control over their spouses than husbands do."

Rich Felson and Margaret Outlaw had an even bigger sample--the national survey data from the VAWA survey. Despite the fact that this survey filters out male victimization because it is less likely to be considered a crime, the survey did assess coercion via a five item scale for controlling behaviors used by each spouse. In analyzing the data on coercion the authors concluded “the findings indicate no support for the position that husbands engage in more marital violence than wives because they are controlling” (p.387).

The respondents data indicated that control was rare for both husbands and wives but more likely in lower socioeconomic strata. So using data from the VAWA Survey itself, Felson & Outlaw get results that are disconfirming of the gender paradigm notion of male coercive control. I do hope that Evan Stark will read these papers instead of doing his usual head-in-the-sand routine. They provide a much needed antidote for his dated and narrow view of coercion and gender, a counter-view that is not merely reinforced by asking one sided questions from shelter samples.

I have debated gender paradigm “true believers” before--both Ed Gondolph and Michael Johnson at various times. Gondolph was going on about how psych-educational interventions were really OK because his own study had found a 40% recidivism rate (which he seemed to think was an acceptable rate). I pointed out that Feld & Straus found that when left alone, men reporting use of severe abuse only recidivate 42% of the time.

Also, when you read the fine print in Gondolph’s method section, you found the disclosure that 40% of the men in treatment had wives who hit them first. Gondolph doesn’t like to mention this. It does seem to indicate that convicting and treating the male only was a bad idea.

"[A] false dichotomy is being misused in family courts to create false expectations in judges about the source of risk for children."

Johnson is similarly circumspect about his flawed methodology--he does disclose it in a feminist sociology journal--I guess in there it’s a badge of honor. The problem remains that his false dichotomy is being misused in family courts to create false expectations in judges about the source of risk for children.

Johnson concluded his debate with me by saying “assume that all violence is intimate terrorism (which is 'largely male perpetrated and related to gender attitudes') until proven otherwise." One thing you find with cults--and I have compared the gender paradigm to a cult before (7)-- like a cult they have a simple, attenuated set of beliefs that all adherents repeat. One sees this in the Johnson statement above or in Stark’s latest recitation of the gender dogma.

Like cults, the paradigm adherents are data resistant--one sees this in Starks’ reaction to 29 well designed studies disconfirming the paradigm as “bobbing and weaving." Like cults, the central dogma remains unchanged in the face of disconfirming evidence.

"Advocates of the gender paradigm love crime victim surveys because they can capitalize on the fact that female violence is not considered a crime by the general population to 'prove' the greater incidence of male violence."

Contrast this cultic approach to a scientific approach; disconfirming evidence must be accounted for either by showing the research was poorly designed and the results dismissed or by changing the theory to accommodate the new results. The gender paradigm tried to discredit the Conflict Tactics Scale because they didn’t like the fact that it was used to show female violence. However, that scale remains 16 times as sensitive as “crime victim surveys.” Advocates of the gender paradigm love crime victim surveys because they can capitalize on the fact that female violence is not considered a crime by the general population (8) to “prove” the greater incidence of male violence.

One by one, the central tenets of the gender paradigm have been disproven--the studies above by Stets and Felson disconfirms the male-coercion arguments, Simon’s survey disproves that there is acceptance of violence to women, the developmental trajectory studies prove that female violence is a trait not a “self defense” reaction, personality disorders rather than gender predict use of IPV.

There is really nothing left scientifically for the gender paradigm to uphold--the dogma is in shambles. It is for this very reason that Evan Stark recites the paradigm one more time, refers to unreferenced “mounds of research”, depicts a “typical abusive relationship" as male controlled. In When Prophecy Fails, social scientists infiltrate a doomsday cult and observe their behavior when the doomsday comes and no catastrophe occurs. The cult members behave just Evan Stark is behaving--by increasing their strident spreading of the central dogma--and, of course, without proof.

[Note: All of the posts relating to this debate are available here. Dutton's citations are after the page jump.--GS]

1. Archer J. Sex differences in aggression between heterosexual partners: A meta-analytic review. Psychological Bulletin. 2000;126:651-680
2. Simon TR, Anderson M, Thompson MP et al. Attitudinal acceptance of intimate partner violence among U.S. adults. Violence and Victims. 2001;16:115-126
3. Graham- Kevan N, Archer J. Using Johnson's domestic violence typology to classify men and women: Victim and perpetrator reports. International Family Violence Conference. Durham. New Hampshire, 2007
4. Laroche D. Aspects of the context and consequences of domestic violence- Situational couple violence and intimate terrorism in Canada in 1999. Quebec City: Government of Quebec, 2005
5. Stets J, Hammond SA. Gender, control and marital committment. Journal of Family Issues. 2002;23:3-25
6. Felson RB, Outlaw MC. The control motive and marital behavior. Violence and Victims. 2007;22:387 - 407
7. Dutton DG. The gender pardigm and the architecture of anti-science. Partner Abuse. 2010;1:5 -25
8. Sorenson SB, Taylor CA. Female aggression toward male intimate partners: An examination of social norms in a community-based sample. Psychology of Women Quarterly. 2005;29:79-96

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14 Responses to “Fathers & Families Hosts Debate Between 2 Leading Domestic Violence Authorities (Part VII)”


Note: The views expressed by readers in the reader comments do NOT necessarily reflect those of Glenn Sacks. The fact that the comment is posted on this blog does NOT signify that Glenn Sacks agrees with it. Posters' views are those of the posters alone--Glenn's views can ONLY be found in the blog post itself, not the comments.  

While blog commenters are given great freedom on this blog, there are some rules of moderation. To read those, click here.

  1. ClarenceOveur Says:

    Dear Dr. Dutton-

    Thank you and God bless you! I tip my hat to you, Sir, as I can not imagine the effort and self-control involved in taking someone like Evan Stark seriously. Yet you appear to! If history is our guide, I'm sure his response will be equivalent to sticking out his tounge with his fingers in his ears. Glenn's Rules of Moderation prohibit me from further expressing my opinions about Evan Stark. Cheers.

  2. Dave Says:

    Regardless of which position you support, when you compare the responses written by Dr. Stark and Dr. Dutton, one thing is immediately clear: Dr. Dutton is careful to back up everything he says with references. Moreover, Dr. Dutton appears to follow a more analytical, scientific approach to the discussion.

    Instead of "duck and weave", I believe a better analogy might be "rope a dope.'

  3. Anon ymous Says:

    Perfect analogy Dave.

    - Anon

  4. Dennis K Says:

    When taken as a whole and removed from the paradigm of academia, this debate clearly establishes the whole of the Diluth Model and it's adherents to be profoundly bigoted against men. When no less than 29 studies of DV find that at least half of women are the causal force in domestic strife, an open mind would conclude the Diluth Model to be defective on its face.

    I am utterly disgusted with people who adhere to the idea that men are always the offenders, especially in view of Dutton's correct conclusion that ".....the “wife battering” stereotype (perpetrated by feminists and their sycophants) is only about 8% of all DV- less common than either bilateral violence or husband battering.".

    The "wife battering" stereotype is an insult to the humanity of, specifically, men. Yet it has become so commonplace in our courts because the truth of DV is being purposely and actively obscured by those who can only be called misandrist miscreants, to say nothing of the children who needlessly suffer because of the twisted minds who created the Diluth Model in the first place. Mr. Dutton accepted presumably because of his desire for truth.

  5. menscollegeactivist.org Says:

    I would like to ask if Mr Stark had a father, or another male authority / leadership figure in his life that encourages his education, and gave his life stability.
    The matriarchal society that he deems as the "model society"..from all the studies, and person observations i see...It would be more accurate to call this the "matriarchal underclass".
    Dr Stark...go "Break yer own patriarchy". Im sure this guy roles up his windows, and locks the doors when he drives through Matriarchal dominated streets.

  6. rsl Says:

    It is a pity that, since the feminists control the narrative, it is the Starks and not the Duttons who will have President Obama's ear.

  7. NE Says:

    If you read every single article in Glenns archive you come to one conclusion. Discrimination and hatred of men is the status quo..

  8. Marc A. Says:

    Boy you really "bobbed and weaved" there, Dutton!

  9. gwallan Says:

    rsl said...

    It is a pity that, since the feminists control the narrative, it is the Starks and not the Duttons who will have President Obama's ear.

    What happens when the Starks have the ear of government...

    http://glennsacks.com/blog/?p=4324#comment-1076835

    The Australian Stark is one Michael Flood who openly advocates that male victims should not only be disbelieved but should actually be considered perpetrators.

    Victims marginalised by the Starks and Floods of this world continue to succumb to suicide, overdose, death by disease and even starvation. But Stark, Flood, et al continue to plug their paradigms. They continue to play gender politics with the lives of victims.

    When Nero fiddled Rome only burned.

    Donald Dutton wrote...

    that court mandated “psychoeducational” programs based on the gender paradigm are colossal failures- in part because they suffer the mis-conceptualizations of the causes of DV put forth by the gender paradigm.

    The insertion of gender politics into treatment regimes relating to abuse does more harm than good. What victims actually need is a "place of safety" even if that place is merely metaphorical. This idealogical approach creates fear, division and hatred rather than a sense that it is possible for victims to find that place.

  10. Lewis Says:

    Dave Says:

    October 26th, 2009 at 9:57 pm
    Regardless of which position you support, when you compare the responses written by Dr. Stark and Dr. Dutton, one thing is immediately clear: Dr. Dutton is careful to back up everything he says with references. Moreover, Dr. Dutton appears to follow a more analytical, scientific approach to the discussion.

    I have to concur with this. Dr. Dutton seems to be speaking from evidence while Dr. Stark seems to be speaking from ideology.

    I'll also throw out that the last person to attempt to strike me in malice was female.

  11. Danny Says:

    5) that the “wife battering” stereotype is only about 8% of all DV- less common than either bilateral violence or husband battering.

    Now that is a real shocker considering that almost the only DV that we ever see discussed in the mainstream media, in ads for DV awareness, and so forth.

  12. John D Says:

    Per Dr. Dutton:

    "The gender paradigm tried to discredit the Conflict Tactics Scale because they didn’t like the fact that it was used to show female violence. However, that scale remains 16 times as sensitive as “crime victim surveys.” Advocates of the gender paradigm love crime victim surveys because they can capitalize on the fact that female violence is not considered a crime by the general population (8) to “prove” the greater incidence of male violence."

    I was arguing with an idiot on youtube who "claimed" to be a domestic violence worker. And he stated that there were very few men seeking inclusion in DV centers.

    I referenced Denise Hines study in the "from ideology to inclusion" post that shows 58% of male victims of DV stated they were turned away from shelters.

    I also stated that feminists lead a very huge battle getting anonymous phone surveys to be the #1 source to show rates of female DV victimage, as DOJ and other stats didn't reflect reality due to many reasons.

    I told him I thought it was very telling that now feminists like him wanted to roll back the clock on male victims and used the 1960's male supremacists argument: "show me these abused men, show me the ER reports, show me the police reports!".

    It really shows that they're not interested in equality at all. They want to use the (much lower) victimhood rates from crime/ER stats *FOR MEN*, but the catch-all net of anonymous phone surveys *FOR WOMEN*.

    Another thing this nutjob said was that DV against men was typically of the lower order of scratches and bites. I told him how come when women are abused it's all about how the abuse made them **feel** (I was terrified ~whimper~), but when it's about abuse of men, it's **how much damage did she really do?**

    I also told him that I held his DV work in very low regard if he is going to minimize violence against anybody--so much for "being there" for **all victims**.

  13. Mr. Bad Says:

    As I noted in a post to an earlier round of this debate, I must echo the observations of others who note the difference in the level of professionalism between Dutton and Stark. Dutton's work is worthy of peer-reviewed, scientific journals while Stark's is suitable for a coffee klatch, or perhaps a women's studies newsletter. There's truly no comparison.

    I also found Dutton's observation that the "true believers" in the gender paradigm model of DV to most closely resemble a cult to be spot-on. I would go further and say that feminism in general is a cult, or perhaps a secular New Age religion. Their strict adherence to dogma despite mountains of solid facts to disprove their beliefs is IMOHO evidence enough to prove that thesis.

  14. john Says:

    how does Dr. stark rationalize the decline of men in college....and how women have 30 women only colleges and men have 3

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Note: The views expressed by some readers in the reader comments do not necessarily reflect those of Glenn Sacks. Their views are theirs alone--if you want mine, look at the blog post, not the blog comments. While blog commenters are given great freedom on this blog, there are some rules of moderation. To read those, click here.

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